Episode 11: How to be an Ally When Women’s Credentials are Minimized

How to react, what to say, and when to give grace.

Transcript  

Chris Riback: I'm Chris Riback. This is Call In. With Dr. Alexandria White, we discuss business leadership in our time of social change when to call in, when to call out, and how to build sustainable business value today. Today’s topic: How to be an Ally When Women’s Credentials are Minimized? 

Dr. Alexandria White: Our show is brought to you by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, which is committed to a more diverse and inclusive future. Let's call in.

Chris Riback: Hi, Dr. White.

Dr. Alexandria White: Hello, Chris, how are you?

Chris Riback: I'm good. Two items are in the news. The City of Greensboro, North Carolina removed a zoning commissioner, after he repeatedly refused to address a professor as doctor during a live public zoom call.

Second one, you may have heard about as well, the Wall Street Journal published a much publicized op-ed where an English professor argued that first lady, Dr. Jill Biden should drop the doctor because she is a Doctor of Education and not, I guess, an MD or even PhD. He wrote... And I'm quoting here... "Madam First Lady, Mrs. Biden, Jill, kiddo..." He called her kiddo, can you imagine? "A bit of advice on what may seem like a small, but I think a not unimportant matter any chance you might drop the doctor before your name?"

Alex, do some men have a problem recognizing women's professional credentials?

Dr. Alexandria White: So, as an academic, Chris, I have to highlight some statistics even before I answer your question. So let's start with the numbers, Chris, before I even answer your question, let's talk about the impact of even getting an advanced degree. According to the US Census Bureau's Education Attainment Report, only four and a half percent, four and a half percent of Americans hold a doctorate degree, and it's even less for underrepresented group and that can be Hispanics, African-Americans Asian Americans. And so, the importance of just amplifying and magnifying that this is a very, very hard academic accomplishment. So when I think of the op-ed, when I think of what happened in North Carolina, I think of the magnitude of even getting into terminal degree. And so now to answer your initial question, do some men have a problem recognizing women's professional credentials? In both of these incidents, men were at the forefront. However, I believe people in general have a problem recognizing credentials. And so I always like to give an example I'm connected to myself because this work is very, very personal, and so often-

Chris Riback: Yes, and just for the record, you did notice I called you Dr. White. I mean...

Dr. Alexandria White: You did. I appreciate that.

Chris Riback: Okay. You're not going to call me out, right?

Dr. Alexandria White: I am not. I am not.

Chris Riback: Okay. Go ahead, please.

Dr. Alexandria White: I often introduce myself to rooms, to people and one of the first things that I get, "You're a doctor, what kind of doctor?" I'm kind of used to the question now, and I say, "I'm a Doctor of Education, similar to Dr. Jill Biden." "Oh, really? Wow. You don't look like a doctor."

And so where does that come from and what does a doctor look like? And so both of these incidents very resonated with me on a personal aspect, on an academic aspect in regard to, do people overall have a problem, recognizing women's professional credentials? And so I think it's just people overall and not just men.

Chris Riback: And so that's part of what I want to get to, because there were some reasons given, explanations given, for some of the actions and your take on whether you believe them and how you would weight the different factors is something I'm curious about. But I found myself wondering, what is really going on? Is it a passive aggressive tactic? Is it a new form of trying to emit authority or even dominance? Is it... My kid is reading “1984” right now... And so I find myself wondering, is it new speak for, "I can't say women are inferior, so this is going to have to do instead?"

Dr. Alexandria White:   I think every situation is different. In the North Carolina situation, that was just pure disrespect. If you watch the video and the exchange, I think it was a different level of disrespect. On multiple times, she was asked, Dr. Rosario was asked to be called Dr. Rosario-

Chris Riback: How in the world did she keep her composure like that? I've watched it. I can't. How'd she keep her composure like that?

Dr. Alexandria White: I saw her in me. I often have to censor my body language, my facial expressions, my words, because you do not ever want to be labeled the angry black woman. And so I saw how her body language, how she tensed up in the video, and she was still trying to hold her ground three or four times after he blatantly would not address her as doctor.

Chris Riback: And he kept putting out the bait and she refused. She would not take the bait.

Dr. Alexandria White: Correct, correct. Lots of breathing. Lots of self-talk in the background on how I can handle this. Because if you read the article or you're up to date on the event, it was a public event. So there were people tuned in from all over Greensboro.

Chris Riback: Yes, it was a live Zoom video.

Dr. Alexandria White: Correct.

Chris Riback: Alex, can I ask you about something that you just said? Is that literally true? Do you have to take that moment or moments and almost talk to yourself and remind... Almost coach yourself, "Breathe. Don't take bait, whatever the language... Stay inside of yourself." Is that something that you have to consciously do? 

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes, it is the process of coaching yourself through incidents where you know are triggering. I have been in places where the N word has been used, and so I know I have... Professional places... I have to navigate that. Do I leave this space? We talk a lot about in a lot of my facilitation regarding diversity, equity, inclusion is time, place, manner, and relationship. And so as I'm self-coaching myself, when I am the subject of a microaggression or a racist or sexist comment, I am constantly thinking, where am I? Am I outnumbered? How will I be perceived? And how will this impact my family or my professional career? All of these are constantly in my mind when I'm dealing with negative comments or insults.

Chris Riback: It's almost a checklist.

Dr. Alexandria White: Correct. Correct.

Chris Riback: Did you develop that checklist over time?

Dr. Alexandria White: I did develop the checklist over time. As I've grown professionally in academia, there were times when I would shut down and then go to the other room and cry, because I was so angry and I knew that I could not show emotions. However, in my time in building rapport with people, I have allies who would often step in and say, "That is incorrect, that is not right, Dr. White actually said this." And so I've had allies in board rooms and conferences and meetings that have spoken up for me when my voice was too unstable to say anything.

Chris Riback: So let's note the outcomes of each of the situations. In Greensboro, North Carolina. The city council cited white privilege and entitlement in its decision to strip the man of his volunteer position. Do you see that North Carolina situation as white privilege and entitlement? As sexism? As some toxic brew of both? More than that? What do you see in that situation?

Dr. Alexandria White: I think in the North Carolina situation, it was a combination of the zoning commissioner exerting dominance over Dr. Rosario, because it should be noted earlier in the same meeting, Chris, Dr. Rosario asked another white male to properly address her as doctor. And he immediately complied, immediately. There's also video of that. And so for this particular zoning commissioner, I think it was just disrespect and the intersection of sexism that was the outcome. And so while it was a volunteer position, the whole commission said, "We would like to remove you due to your outright and blatant disrespect." And so that's how I see the North Carolina situation.

Chris Riback: In the Biden case, Northwestern has now scrubbed Joseph Epstein's page from its website. Joseph Epstein was, he was previously listed as an Emeritus Lecturer of English. He's the one who wrote, of course, the Wall Street Journal piece. What was going on there?

Dr. Alexandria White: I think toxic masculinity, dominance, and just overall sexism, the way the op-ed was written, he talked about fraudulent, using doctor as a fraudulent title. Dr. Biden was 55 years old when she finished her dissertation, a long arduous task. And so to say that D-R, period was fraudulent was just outright sexist and just a form of a little bit of toxic masculinity.

And from one academic to another, he could have easily looked up her dissertation. It's about community college, which she currently is teaching at a community college. So her research, her methodology was far from fraudulent. And so I just was very taken aback by his word usage and that op-ed.

Chris Riback: So Alex, and now I'd like to get your advice and your guidance for the business  world, what should business leaders do? How should they think about calling in versus calling out? So my first question I was, I tried to put myself in the shoes of the professional woman, the person who received this kind of commentary. In general, how should a professional woman react in the moment, and after the moment?

Dr. Alexandria White: So, we've mentioned this before, I truly believe in time, place, manner, and relationship when dealing with microaggression, sexism, blatant, blatant disrespect. As a professional, I'm always thinking, and some things that I coach other professional women: Is it the proper time? Is it a board meeting? Is it a high impact project that you are working on? The person who has been the offender, is it a stranger? Is it someone that you have to work with day in, day out? Is it your superior? And then what is the relationship? How often will you see this person? And so while those are lots of questions, that is something that as a professional woman, and then I'll add my intersectionalities to that, is that we have to navigate or sensor. And the importance of allies, in men, in people who see these is to say something.

And when do those allies say something? What should a business leader do? And so business leaders often have to navigate when to say something, how to say something, and how often to say something. Because we know CEOs, CFOs are so busy channeling emails and meetings, I guess they can't speak up every time a microaggression or a sexist comment comes about. And so what business leaders should do is: are their company's policies, very adamant that we want inclusive language, not only from our customers, but also from our colleagues and our employees. That's something that business leaders can do. And now let me add on my intersectionality as a woman of color.

Chris Riback: Please.

Dr. Alexandria White: When you are in those boardrooms or places and spaces, and you see an underrepresented group, a woman, a mother, an immigrant, an African American, an Asian American, a member of the LGBTQ plus, how are you an ally when you see these types of comments being directly targeted at people?

And so I often tell people, how can you be an ally as a colleague? Should you say something in the meeting? Should you give a shoulder tap? And so there's two things. If you are a colleague and you see someone from an underrepresented background being constantly targeted, whether it's their names are pronounced wrong, or their title is not given, what can you do? So I want to give you an example.

There was a CEO and he was introducing everyone on his C-suite. And there was only one woman and the CEO, he talked about all of the men's credentials. "Oh, he was a founder of this. He went to Harvard business school. He has this amount in his pipeline." He did all of the accomplishments for the men in the room. And then when he got to the woman, he goes, "Yes, this is Susie. Oh, and she's a mother of four."

Chris Riback: Come on now.

Dr. Alexandria White: And so...

Chris Riback: This is for real?

Dr. Alexandria White:   Yes. So this is an example of how in the moment does that only woman in the room say, "Mr. CEO, not only am I a mother, but I am also a graduate of Yale, and for the last 15 years, I have made this amount of money for your company." And so she did. And the CEO, "Oh, yes, yes. You have been an asset to our organization."

That is an example of when a woman had to react in the moment to amplify her credentials to a room of men who might have only seen her as a mother. 

Chris Riback: Alex, can I just, can I push back on one point?

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Chris Riback: You gave the CEO, the CFO, a little bit of an out. You said, "You know what, they're busy, and so maybe they can't respond to everything and at every moment.” But isn't the time to say something, if one is the leader, if one is a C-suite leader, is it, is it not the time to say something in that moment when it happens, make the stand. Maybe you don't have to call out the person who said it. I mean, your tone can be... One's tone could be constructive.

Dr. Alexandria White: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris Riback: It can be calling in, but isn't it, are you giving them just a little bit of a break by saying, "Oh, maybe they can deal with it later, or they might not have time to deal with it right there in the moment."

Dr. Alexandria White: And so while I wish that every CEO had the tools, the competency, and the language, we know that they don't, Chris. And so one of the things that I do in my inclusive leadership trainings or executive coaching is give CEOs the language. Because right now in this cancel culture, sometimes they're remaining mum or silent when these things happen because they don't have the language.

And so while everyone is not on their DEI journey, I believe in giving grace and understanding and meeting people where they are. And so in the perfect world, yes, right then on that Zoom call in that board meeting, when a sexist or homophobic comment is made, the CEO shuts it down. That is my hope. But right now we know that people are still learning. That all of this terminology and all of these new words and nuances and what not to say and how to say it is scary. And so what I do and what my passion is, is to give grace, educate, and still believe that people will learn and be helpful and be inclusive to each other.

Chris Riback: Super, thank you.

Dr. Alexandria White: And so I'd like to give you some tips, some strategies.

Chris Riback: Yes, please. 

Dr. Alexandria White: What can you do? These are tangible things that you can do to amplify all credentials, from all people, from all employees, ask, "What would you like to be called?"

It's simple in this virtual world, you can often see people's names or preferred pronouns on the Zoom screen, on the Microsoft Team screen. And if not, ask, "What would you like to be called? Doctor? Attorney?" Be intentional about using proper names and pronunciations of names. So we're not only talking about titles, but do you make it an intentional part of your business strategy to properly use people's names and to properly say people's names?

Another thing, introduce colleagues in meetings by their credentials. I work with the wonderful staff of Reboot Accel. And every time my colleagues introduce me as Dr. Alexandra White. They are amplifying me even before I have a chance to do so.

Chris Riback: Mm, setting the stage.

Dr. Alexandria White: Setting the stage. So introduce your colleagues in meetings, by their credential, especially for women and underrepresented groups. So once again, some tangible and actionable things that you can do: ask, "What would you like to be called?" Not only in titles, preferred pronouns, be intentional about using proper names and pronunciation of names, and last but not least be that ally in the boardroom. Introduce colleagues in meetings by their credentials, especially when you see that they are the only in the room.

Chris Riback: So ask, be intentional and be the ally. Those are the three?

Dr. Alexandria White: Definitely.

Chris Riback: Dr. White. Thank you.

Dr. Alexandria White: Thank you, it was a pleasure speaking with you today.

Chris Riback: Talk to you soon.

Dr. Alexandria White: Bye-bye.