Episode 42: Empowering Change: Strategies for Team Management Success with Rohini Anand

Join us for an engaging conversation with Dr. Rohini Anand as we explore strategies for empowering change and fostering a culture of inclusivity within organizations. Dr. Anand will share her expertise in driving sustainable change through initiatives to engage employees, customers, and communities. She will provide practical tips and best practices for implementing programs that deliver measurable results and create lasting impact. This episode will inspire leaders to take proactive steps towards building diverse and inclusive workplaces where everyone can thrive.

Chris Riback: Dr. Anand. Thank you so much for joining us. We've been looking forward to the conversation.

Dr. Rohini Anand: Delighted to be in conversation with you and with Dr. White.

Chris Riback: So perhaps we could start with 60, 90 seconds on you. Who are you? How did you get here? Why are we talking with you?

Dr. Rohini Anand: Currently, I'm a published author and I am a board member and a coach. So I sort of play in three areas. I do keynotes. I'm on several boards, both some of the boards I'm on as Sanofi's External Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Board, charter Communication Spectrum, TV's, external Diversity Advisory Board, as well as nonprofit boards like Women Lift Health that advances women in healthcare and TED Partnership for refugees. And I do coaching and executive engagement. Prior to this, I was the Global Chief Diversity office at Sodexo, and I headed up corporate responsibility, diversity, equity and inclusion and wellness globally.

Dr. Alexandria White: You sound like a mentor that I need to have Dr. Anand. So thank you. Everything from board appointments, I just got appointed to my second board. So I just appreciate listening to you as a woman, as an entrepreneur, and someone who is in the global inclusion space. So when you think of global inclusion, I want to interject or add radical into that. So think of everything that you have done in the workplace. Can you describe an act of radical inclusion that you have seen across the board in any company, any board, any startup that you have been affiliated with?

Dr. Rohini Anand: I can think of a lot of examples of radical inclusion and perhaps we can get into more of the details of that later. But certainly my experience at Sodexo where I took the company from what I call class action to best in class, because when I joined in 2002, it was at a very difficult time in the company's history. They were dealing with a class action lawsuit filed by the African-American managers of the promotion discrimination lawsuit. And about six months after I was hired, it was certified as a class action. So going from there to transforming the organization so it became a leader. And well-known in diversity, equity inclusion, not just in the United States, but in the world was an act of radical inclusion. I would say more of an act of cultural transformation. But having said that, maybe I can describe to you one act of radical inclusion, maybe a little different from what you are thinking of because this is more of a personal story about A CEO that I reported to.

And I remember the time, this is someone called Dick Macedonia and actually shared the story in my book, leading Global Diversity Equity Inclusion. And I remember the meeting that he had with the African-American employee resource group where they were having a conversation with him and asking him about his commitment to DEI and he was frustrated, he was upset, he was angry, the meeting didn't end well. And he left the meeting and subsequently a member of his team, an African-American male, basically shared with him some stories about why he would always wear a suit and tie even during dress down days. And he shared his experiences of being stopped by the police, of being followed in stores of being mistaken for help in a restaurant. As these stories got closer to his world, to his home, sort of because he knew this individual very well, James paid close attention and then he asked for another meeting with the African-American ERG.

It took an act of courage on his part and it took an act of courage on the part of the African-American leaders because Dick had expressed his annoyance, but they invested in him because they knew he was authentic. And with him, you basically get what you see. And in this meeting, Dick made himself vulnerable and he said to them, he changed his approach and he was humble, he was vulnerable. And he said, help me understand your experiences. I haven't walked in your shoes. And with that, a connection was made and they became his strongest allies and advocates. So to me, that was quite an active inclusion on both parts. And Dick went on to become a leader who systemically changed the culture at Sodexo because he had a metrics and he made systemic changes holding people accountable. He had clear metrics, he allocated resources, all of these things.

But I think what the bottom line here is took a disruptive experience. Dick had the courage to have his worldview be disrupted to allow that to happen. And conversely for me as well, going into the organization, being appointed as a chief diversity officer at a time when this company was in the midst of a lawsuit filed by their black employees and they hired someone who's not black, I'm Asian American, and I kind of questioned the wisdom of the company doing that. So I had to build my bridges, gain trust with the management, but I also had to gain trust with the black employees, the black managers. For me, it was a deep learning experience. And I have to say, without the investment and the commitment that the African-American employees managers made in me, I wouldn't have been successful. So for me, that was an act of radical inclusion, which is sort of personal for me.

Chris Riback: A word that really stood out to me, struck me, and maybe you can talk about this in terms of advice that you give, if this is an area where you advise vulnerable, you said that Dick made himself vulnerable. That's not a word that one would associate necessarily in a traditional sense with an effective manager. Effective manager is not supposed to be vulnerable. An effective manager is supposed to be directed, focused, stern, understanding, purposeful. You don't often hear vulnerable. Why does vulnerability matter?

Dr. Rohini Anand: Yeah, so I think vulnerability matters a lot because to me, I think good leadership is about authenticity, it's about humility, and it's about vulnerability. I don't think anymore in this day and age, you have to have leaders who know everything, who pretend to know everything, who are directive. I think the leaders wrote is really being genuine about what they do know and what they don't know. The best leaders that I have seen, the most transformative leaders are leaders who are humble, who are vulnerable, who are self-aware and who are authentic because I think that's how they connect to people. That's how they allow themselves to grow and allow the organization to grow because they acknowledge that they don't have all the answers. And I think in today's complex global environment, you cannot have all the answers and you've got to empower people around you to balance out what you don't know otherwise you have blind spots. And that's what creators organizations. So to me, transformative leaders are the leaders who are vulnerable and have humility and are authentic.

Dr. Alexandria White: That sounds wonderful, doc. I mean, that just sounds so wonderful. Vulnerability, humility, authenticity just sounds so great. So I have to push back because the people that are listening to this, they might say, that takes too much time. In your story, you just said that he had to go back a second time and talk to the American employee resource group that took extra time out of his already busy schedule. And so the listeners here might say, yes, I would love to do that, but I just don't have time in my C-suite position in my SVP position in my CEO position to do all the things that you just said. So what would you tell them if they say that that is one of the hinders that are preventing them to do those great things?

Dr. Rohini Anand: Well, here's what I would say. I think if I play out that one example, if Dick had not done what he did, I think his career would've cratered. I think the organization would have been in a very different place. Now, when I shared with you, I said the organization went from class action to best in class. They could have checked the box and done what the court ordered mandate required, but they didn't. What they ended up doing was to invest and to become a leader in the space. And just, if I can digress for a moment, the reason why they did that was because they saw the business benefit. What began to happen was that as we started to engage the organization in initiatives in systemic changes, and I think change at the intersection of people and processes, so you have to change people's mindsets and you have to address systemic processes.

But as we started to enroll and engage the organization, clients like your university, Dr. White started taking notice. And when they took notice, now remember, food service and facilities management is sort of relegated to someone who's fairly junior in the organization, in a corporation, but DEI is a C-suite issue. So they took notice and they started asking our mid-level managers who many of them white males, they said, can you share with us all the stuff you're doing? Can you call someone from Sodexo to come and talk to us? So what began to happen was these managers who were on the sort of outskirts or were not really engaged now started reaching out to my team to say, I have a client. We can add value to the client if you come and share some of your knowledge with them. So we got access to the C-suite, and through that, it led to client retention.

It led to DEI being a differentiator. We were included in sales presentations. It led to new business development, access to the c-suite, and my team and I touched 1 billion of business a year, either in terms of new business or existing business, and that was a huge deal. So having said that, I'm just saying that to say that that was the outcome of very positive journey. But if Dick had not engaged, this would've been an organization which would've continued to have lawsuits, which would've become a revolving door where your women and people of color would not want to join and not want to stay. It's a people business. We all know that most businesses are very dependent on the quality of the people. So not investing that time would've had some very bad repercussions on the individual leader who says he or she doesn't have time and on the business. So I think this is about leaders being curious, being courageous, and being committed to do the right thing. And that does take investment. It takes intentionality and it takes time.

Chris Riback: How much of these are learned behaviors and how much are intuitive both on the curiosity side that you just mentioned, and on the genuine, humble self-aware, authentic, vulnerable side that we were discussing earlier.

Dr. Rohini Anand: So I think many of them can be inherent to a person's personality, but I truly believe that people can change. So to me, they learned behaviors and I think giving people the grace to change investing in them pays off. So I shared with you the example of Dick. It took courage on Dick's part, but it took a lot of courage on the black leaders part. So it was both that invested in each other, if you will. But I can share with you example after example of where leaders have shifted. Their mindset may not have been an inherent piece, but they learned. So I'll share another quick example with you. One particular leader that I worked with was very resistant to DEI. He didn't believe in the business case, and we had shared all this data. He said “Yeah, yeah, yeah, but to your point, Dr., I don't have the time for this. I have other business priorities, et cetera.” So I knew that he liked to network with other CEOs. So I got him involved in a cross-company mentoring program where he mentored a woman from a different company. Now they developed a very trusting relationship, and she shared with him stories of being marginalized, of being diminished or being talked over as the only woman in the C-suite. And finally she got laid off and she shared her experience of how she had been treated. And he came to me and he said, if someone had been laid off, a woman had been laid off in my team, I would've said, those are the breaks of the game. Men get laid off, women get laid off, they lose their jobs. It's a business decision. But after mentoring her and listening to her experiences, I cannot believe that this is happening to women today and such senior women, and I don't want it happening to anyone on my team, in my organization, on my clock.

So here is an individual who is pretty resistant, but provided with the right experience, he had to make himself vulnerable, be curious, listen to her lived experience, but certainly he shifted. So the story doesn't end there because he shifted and what he said was, I want every single one of my 12 direct reports to mentor another woman in the organization. So that happened. They mentored these 12 women. Of the 12 women, nine of them went on to head large country portfolios and large business portfolios. Now, it's not that they didn't have the skills before they did, but they were now made visible to the organization by these leaders who sponsored them and who mentored them. So it has this cascading effect in the organization. So in closing, to your point, Chris, I firmly believe that people can change and these can be learned behaviors, but you've got to meet people where they are because everyone has this ecosystem of beliefs and you've got to meet them where they are and be willing to invest in them to change those behaviors, and they have to be willing to invest in themselves.

Dr. Alexandria White: What as changed you in this space working in diversity and global inclusion?

Dr. Rohini Anand: Oh my.

Dr. Alexandria White: Going to add another part. What has changed you and how does that relate to your already intersectionality? Because you've mentioned women, I want to know how it's changed you and how that has impacted your intersectionalities in that regard.

Dr. Rohini Anand: So this work is very personal for me as it is for anyone that does this work. It's very integral to who I'm, I grew up in India and growing up in India, pretty much everyone looked like me in terms of pin tone, et cetera, variations. But I was part of the majority, and I belonged to the majority religion and surrounded by others like me. I had the privilege of not having to think about my identity. My move to the United States really was an inflection point in my journey and inflection point, I think both literally and metaphorically. And my identity shifted from someone who saw herself as the center of her world to being an immigrant, to being an outsider, to being a foreigner. And I was totally unprepared for that. And I have to say that it was only when I was identified as an immigrant and a minority that I realized the privileges that came with being part of the majority.

I hadn't recognized those privileges. In fact, I hadn't reflected them in that way, and I couldn't until I had that experience of being a minority. I think it was that experience that brought me to the work that I do today and sort of brought me to this commitment to level the playing field for people regardless of who they are in creating this culture of inclusion where we have this sense of belonging, but where our uniqueness is also respect. So that was sort of my experience that brought me to the work that I do today. But in terms of intersectionality, I think that experience is really what brought me to recognize my intersectional identity. So I had this identity of being a woman growing up in India, but my identity as an Asian American or as a minority basically evolved from that experience of moving to the United States in this different context. And then I think it evolved even further when I started doing this work to identifying myself as a woman of color and the commonalities that I have with other women of color. So I think that's sort of been the thread and the evolution for me. But it's been a learning, it's been an ongoing learning, and I make my mistakes and I stumble.

Dr. Alexandria White: That’s right. So many things that you said resonated with me. I'm currently coaching Indian clients. I wake up at six 30 in the morning and coach them because of the time difference, but just listening to their stories and how they show up at work as well in that regard. And so thank you. Thank you for sharing your lived experience with us, Dr. Anand.

Chris Riback: I'm curious, your take on the cultural moment that we find ourselves in, there's increasing questions around maybe not so much the benefit of diversity, maybe there are some people, but let's say that the benefits of diversity are understood, but the processes, the need for definitions or programs or directed actions is certainly getting second or third or fifth or sixth looks. What's your take on that part of the cultural moment?

Dr. Rohini Anand: I think there's lots of things happening in the external ecosystem. I think after this court’s ruling on race in higher education, admissions and the trickle down effect on corporations I think has had, I think they're cautious. I think there's sort of economic challenges and organizations are sort of taking this wait and watch attitude and saying that we have other priorities. And to be honest with that, there has been an impact on DEI in the workplace. There's been a 17% decline in commitment to DEI. The diversity officer position is the only C-suite position that is being eliminated. So it certainly is having an impact. What I see is that those organizations that embarked on this work just as a reaction to external events, so to the murder of George Floyd and other black men and women, they launched this work and made these lofty commitments. They're now rolling back those commitments very quietly.

But those organizations that have really embedded it in their business model, who see the business benefit, whether it's around talent or it's around markets or it's around consumers or clients, business growth, whatever it is, those organizations are continuing to invest and continuing to figure out ways to really work around some of these challenges. So those are the organizations that will sustain their commitment, but it's those that have made these performative statements are the ones that are rolling back. There are others, and you talked about initiatives, et cetera, that people are taking another look at. I mean, there's many ways to work around it. I think when you consider initiatives for diversity, equity, and inclusion, they can be broad initiatives. They're about inclusion of everyone. I think that you can have initiatives that are focused. For instance, when I work with the organizations, I always tell them, if you have a mentoring initiative, open it up to everyone. Let everyone benefit from it. You can over index certain populations because there's certain barriers in an organization that are greater for some individuals and others based on their identity. So address those. There are ways around it many and I think as the organizations that are committed that will figure that out.

Dr. Alexandria White: I fundamentally agree. When I talk to companies who talk about diversity, equity, inclusion and things being taken away, and I love the statistic that you talked about in regards to c-suite, people who are in the diversity space, losing their position, you reframe diversity. There's companies right now that are doing financial literacy for their employees. That's a form of diversity, making sure that everyone is financially literate. You mentioned the mentoring program, employee resources groups or BRGs business resource groups. And so all of those are aspects of diversity that are just not centered around race and gender. And so it's very important that these companies understand to reframe diversity. Speaking of reframing, what's something that you are currently researching or interested in the diversity space?

Dr. Rohini Anand: One of the areas that I would really like to do more work in is around this aspect of race globally. And I think it's one of the most challenging areas. And when I wrote my book, it was one of the areas where I found people get most frustrated because there isn't much out there by way of the few best practices. And I think outside of the United States in particular, race is talked about in code or not at all. And what I found is that it's challenging because race and racism is both universal and highly specific. And the reason for that is that the dominant and subordinate groups differ depending on what part of the world you're in. I think that it extremely challenging. And I think also it's a very fluid concept that's shaped by culture and by history. So you really can't take this sort of cookie cutter approach.

And oftentimes race is tangled up with other identities like caste or ethnicity or religion that take more prominence than race does. So in the United States, race is the driving social force, but elsewhere, it's just one of the several identities that divide and may play less of a prominent role, if you will. So if we expect race or racism to be expressed in the manner in which we are accustomed to in the United States, we may miss those entry points like discrimination based on religion or caste in India or ethnicity in Kenya, for example. And I think to complicate things, race is highly emotive and politically charged. So to me, that's one of the things that I think a lot of people struggle with. How do you address this when you can't gather data? For instance, in Europe on race, you can see that you have black people in France in very junior positions, not in senior positions, but it's illegal to gather data.

So what you do, the term race was actually struck from the French constitution in 2018. And the reason for that is they identify people by what they call objective criteria like migrant status or citizenship rather than group identity. And this was in response to the Holocaust and the identification of Jewish people based on their religion. There's a logic and a reason for that, but the question is it doesn't change what the current dynamic is, so how do you address it when you can't gather data? And so I'd like to do a lot more work in that space and really look at how to address race in a very practical way in different parts of the world outside the United States. And I think a lot of us in the United States gets stuck because we have this lens that we view the world through. And I think we just then misinterpret and miss things.

Dr. Alexandria White: Are you familiar with the new documentary film by Ava DuVernay? And so for the listeners who are not familiar with it, if you'd like to delve more into global race, check out the book and the film called Origin, and it's the life of Isabelle Wilkerson. And she wrote a book called Caste, the Origins of Our Discontent. And so she goes throughout Germany, India, and the United States to research caste systems. So listeners, take a look at it, read the book, and Dr. Knight, I look forward to more research and think pieces from you in that regard.

Dr. Rohini Anand: Thank you. And don't forget to read my book, Leading Global Diversity.

Chris Riback: I was just going to say they can read cast and a Verna's book just after they read Dr. Anand's book. Dr. Anand, to close out quickly, in your conversations with CEOs, what would you describe as the most common question or two that you get from them and actions they should take?

Dr. Rohini Anand: One is tell me concretely how it impacts this particular business. Right? Don't talk in generalities. So really what, as practitioners, what you have to do is to show how diversity impacts business outcomes. Don't talk generally about talent, et cetera, but how it impacts your business outcomes. And the second is, okay, so now I know, so what should I do? And the answer to that is really to internalize the benefit and to lead with curiosity, courage, and commitment. And the commitment really has to do with impacting systems to ensure that there's no bias

Chris Riback: That resonates. I would expect that they would want to understand, okay, now what should we do? How is it directly practical to my business as opposed to, as you said, generalities and what are the direct tactics that we should take? Exactly. That's super helpful. I'm certain there are lessons that they can get from your book. There are lessons that they can get from this conversation and Dr. White, I'm certain as well. I'm grateful to you for your time and the thoughtfulness that you gave us. Thank you.

Dr. Rohini Anand: Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation. Appreciate it.