Episode 35: Empowering women’s careers post-pandemic

How can women capitalize on the new normal after the pandemic? Partner in EY-Parthenon’s Transaction Strategy Practice Nina Lapachet joins the Call In podcast to weigh in.

Dr. Alexandria White: Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of Call In podcast. We are delighted to have Nina from EY, but in addition to Nina, we also have my business partner, Diane Flynn, who will also be co-hosting this episode. And so Nina, welcome to Call In. Tell us about your title and what you do at EY.

Nina Lapachet: Thank you for having me and for the warm welcome. Again, my name is Nina Lapachet. I'm a partner at EY and our EY Parthenon Practice and Transaction Strategy. So that means I advise clients on how best to create value through large scale mergers and acquisitions and other types of corporate transactions. And I have another role at EY. My other role here is that I lead our campus recruiting program. So I get to go out and work with bright young people early in their career journeys to find a home in management consulting.

Dr. Alexandria White: Wonderful.

Diane Flynn: And Nina, I've had the wonderful pleasure of working with you the last many years on special women's programs, so today we're going to focus on what can organizations do to be mindful of women's careers and how can they best support women? And I know you have a lot of great thoughts on that. So why don't you lead us through the pandemic. Take us back and tell us about anything that changed for women at EY during that time.

Nina Lapachet: It's been really quite a journey. It actually started well before the pandemic, but the pandemic was such an accelerator of some of these green shoots that had happened before. I'll speak to management consulting, which is my area of expertise, but I think there's so many parallels to other sectors and professions as well. But going back in these, call it, high powered careers, a lot of hours, a lot of stress, things like corporate finance and banking and consulting and careers like that, traditionally they had been rather inflexible, a lot of travel, certain hours, in office requirements, and they had also, not terribly coincidentally, struggled to keep women above a certain level, above sort of the manager, director level. There was a cliff like drop-off in retention of women across these professions, across companies and firms. And in recognition of that, many of these companies began to evaluate different options and programs to make this job more palatable for people with different life requirements, not just women, parents, caregivers, others who were not able to or not interested, really, in meeting a certain way of working.

And so, I know certainly for EY and EY Parthenon and many of our competitors, we're evaluating all kinds of different strategies for this. And so when the pandemic came, luckily we were not starting from scratch, we had been thinking about this and piloting things and evaluating different capabilities, but it really made it such a necessity to get it right. You all lived through this as well and Diane and I have had many conversations about this and how we're seeing different women respond, and I too was disheartened to see how many women left the workplace during the pandemic, not just mine, but in general. That was hard for me to watch as someone who had put so much mental energy and care into getting more women into my profession. To watch them leave was heartbreaking. And it was an eyeopener for me and others to say, "We are not going back, we are never going back, we are moving forward."

And so, I'm terribly optimistic now because we're at this pivotal moment where the return to work, return to office, it's being designed, we're seeing different companies take different approaches, we're part of many conversations with our clients around how they're approaching it and what's working for women and what's not and what's working for the general populace and what's not, and so I'm excited to say that I believe the future is very bright for women in the workplace. I think we're going to design something and use this inflection point that allows us to catapult women into far more than just 10% of the Fortune 500 C-suite.

Diane Flynn: And I've read recently that now most of the women who left the workforce are back in the workforce post pandemic. Is that your understanding as well, Nina?

Nina Lapachet: People reentered, but definitely used the great resignation as an opportunity to revisit their priorities. And so, I think for companies who are unable to take that same amount of self-reflection, they will struggle to be able to attract the right level of talent because individuals and employees took that moment of reflection to say, "What do I care about? What are my priorities? What are my requirements?" And so we all need to think about that at the same time and say, "What am I doing for my employees to give them what they need to be successful and to support them on their individual journeys and paths, which are all very different?"

Dr. Alexandria White: And so when you think about that, what's my quality of life? Am I working for a company that shares my values? And so when you said get it right, what are some companies or initiatives or programs that you are aware of where they are getting it right? They are on the journey to, "We're not going back. We're going to put our pinky toe in the water and try to get it right." Any examples of that?

Nina Lapachet: There's a few. I'd start with some structural examples. So if I think about programs that companies are putting in place, structurally, that's inclusive benefits that allow people different flexible structures in terms of both health and wellness benefits that meet their individual needs as well as work arrangements that are more flexible in terms of location of working, hours of working, days of working, secondments, all of those. So I've seen those be very successful. I certainly am really proud of our team at EY that's done a lot of work to think through how do we make our benefit program inclusive and suiting the needs of our people?

And then there's the less structural, call it, more informal means, around mentorship, sponsorship, apprenticeship as we are designing these programs. I'll use an example of a hybrid environment. So for a company that has not enforced people to come back in in certain days but is encouraging people to be in at certain days a week, how are you using the right carrot? And so one example that comes to mind is really advertising that apprenticeship model and reinforcing that apprenticeship model. So you come in, not to show your face in the office, check a box, get a badge swipe and go about your day, but to receive that really deep side-by-side, apprenticeship and mentorship that will grow your career, that is attractive to people.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Nina Lapachet: And it's also, if I reflect on my career, I would absolutely not be in this chair if I hadn't had that same level of apprenticeship growing up. In my profession, we have this dichotomy where there's people who, when they get to the certain director, senior director level, they start having those babies, and are less interested in coming in than the more junior folks. And my response to them is, yes, but if you want them to be as good as you, you need to give them the same apprenticeship that you got coming up through the ranks. And again, I'm not suggesting that means a certain number of hours somewhere, but I am suggesting that that in-person connection and apprenticeship is a difference maker in my business and many others.

Diane Flynn: When you say apprenticeship, I am thinking mentorship and sponsorship. Is that how you are using that word?

Nina Lapachet: Slightly differently. So I think mentorship, anyone can be a mentor, in my view. Mentors can be temporary, they can be long-term, they give you good advice. Sponsors will speak about you when you're not in the room, they'll pound the table, they'll push for opportunities for you. They're really sort of more working behind the scenes and leveraging their influence to advance your career. And the apprenticeship model in our world is really about someone who's going to sit next to you and show you the ropes and really guide you through. It's not just your manager, but it's someone who's really going to help you learn the trade day in and day out, answer your questions, help advance your skillsets solely for the reason of advancing your skillsets, not just because there's a job that needs to be done.

Diane Flynn: So you mentioned this apprenticeship model. What would you say to leaders, and I know many, I read about many and I know many, who really want everyone in five days a week. They think that's the only way to build a culture, to have those apprenticeship opportunities, to make sure the work's getting done. We've heard certain leaders say we need to get back to work, which is a little bit of a pet peeve for me because I work with so many women who have no boundaries, they're working harder than ever before maybe from home or remotely. So what would you tell leaders who are concerned that the work's not getting done?

Nina Lapachet: I would say this is one of those situations where we all have to admit that the extremes aren't helpful. My example is, during the early days of the pandemic, so many people on my team, and myself included, were working 20 hours a day from our basements and living rooms and it was draining, it was not fulfilling, you were not getting the in-person connection that you needed, the work was hard. The work was absolutely getting done and I'm proud of the service that we provided, but it was a difficult period. And so I think that 100% remote, I've learned, I have experienced, I have done, is really a difficult road and I don't think one that will benefit the long-term success of our people and our clients for my business and many others. Similarly, enforcing a full-time back to office commitment is really going to disenfranchise many of our people who have other requirements and lives.

I've received research from third parties, I've got my own personal experience, generationally, younger generations, the early career folks want something different than we wanted. Their expectations are different than our expectations were. If we expect this coming class of early career teammates to want what we wanted, we will fail in attracting and retaining the best people in moving up through the ranks to lead our organizations into the future.

Dr. Alexandria White: Then we need to expound on that. While we're at the generations, I'm an older millennial, you said in your intro that you work with campus, I am a professor in the classroom and so this is my jam, so keep going on that, expand upon that.

Nina Lapachet: I'll come back to that. I want to finish on Diane's point of, what do I say to those people who say get back to work? I say, if you want the best people, you've got to figure out what it takes for them to reach their potential. How do I get this individual to reach their individual potential both for their own trajectory and for the contribution to the mission at hand? Really going to struggle in this environment to compete with others that aren't, however it is case by case, culture by culture. Alex, to your point about generations, I share your passion on this. It fills my cup and lights the fire to hang out with these junior folks who are so bold and ambitious, and I get up on these stages sometimes on campus and these questions that these 19 year olds are willing to ask, it's motivating and it's exciting and they're wild. I'm not sure I would've had the guts to ask those questions.

If you look at what they want for their early careers, they want flexibility. It ranks above things that shock me coming from my own personal experiences and biases. So it ranks under comp, shocking, they're ambitious little nuggets, but it ranks above DEI, which surprised me for many populations. It ranks above some of the other programs and perks in the model. So that flexibility, and not just as flexible work arrangements, but flexibility to draw boundaries around work and home. When am I at work? When am I off work? Flexibility to create structures around extended leave, things like that are of really high importance to this population. And so we as employers, as we're looking to create an environment where all of the people that we hire can thrive and succeed and meet that potential, we need to think about. How can we provide that for them and also meet our business needs? This has to be good business decisions. We're all trying to run businesses here. I personally believe that we absolutely can do both.

Diane Flynn: My experience from having three kids in their twenties, some of whom spent three to six months in Europe working during the pandemic, have seen that that's a pretty nice lifestyle and they got their work done. So I do think they have a different expectation for sure. When I read about office vacancies, I have started to hear that the vacancies are typically in the older buildings and that a lot of companies are investing in fancy new offices and amenities in the hopes of attracting people into the office. Do you have any thoughts about that? What do people need to think about in terms of the physical office environment?

Nina Lapachet: Yeah, it's a great question. And I do think this is an opportunity to design an office that is productive for us all, right? That entices people to come in. I think the corporate real estate market is going to need some injection of creativity to think about how to drive that type of behavior, especially in cities like San Francisco. But again, I think if you ask people why they come in or what makes them come in, the answers that I get are to see my managers, to see my directors, to engage with other people. So spaces that facilitate that type of interaction will be very productive. If all people do is come into an office, close the door, it might not have been worth the commute. We need to create spaces that allow for that type of interaction and support.

Dr. Alexandria White: What do you think about bringing the childcare to office campuses? Because there are employers right now that have daycares on their campuses, sometimes an au pair or a nanny or something that is in the vicinity of workplaces. And so when we talk about the physical space and how to get people there, what are some things that you have even thought about or have heard in regards to childcare? Because there is a need for childcare and childcare is not cheap, as many of us know.

Nina Lapachet: I'll start with the caveat that that part of program design is outside of my purview at the firm, so I won't speak to the firm on this. I will say, I had my first child in 2015 and I figured we've been back in the workplace in a meaningful way since what? Seventies, eighties, maybe nineties, surely this part has been figured out and I was just sort of alarmed at how difficult it was to sort out childcare and how stressful it was. And that being almost eight years ago, was, I don't know how much we've really advanced the needle, candidly. I think that is still a really stressful part of the working mother and working father's experience today. So is there a competitive advantage to be found for employers to take that level of friction out of the employee experience? Surely there is.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Nina Lapachet: So I definitely think that we're an interesting talent market right now, I think people realize. I think the talent market has been wildly volatile for the past 18 months, which has been interesting, but as we move into, hopefully, what I'm hoping for is a level of stability, then what we'll find is that employers are going to have to continue to think creatively about what their employees need to be successful. Back in the early days of the tech companies being the tech companies and setting up all of the free lunches and gaming studios and all of the perks that sort of came with that era of big tech, I think there is maybe a new era coming of places of employment that make employees able to focus or interested in focusing on the work that they want to do because they're able to do so in a way that is supported for their life, but that'll mean a lot of different things to different people, and I would love to see childcare be part of that equation.

Dr. Alexandria White: I agree.

Diane Flynn: This podcast is sponsored by one of our clients, CD and R, a private equity firm based in New York, and one of the challenges I see in private equity and many other industries is the amount of travel, and a lot of times young moms especially find extensive travel to be challenging. Any thoughts about how companies that require lots of travel should think about supporting women?

Nina Lapachet: Yes. Management consulting and private equity, here we go. So look, part of my hope and ambition and optimism about the future of women in leadership in places like consulting, banking and private equity is because of what the pandemic has done to how we think about travel. Is travel still required? Yes. Is it important? Yes. I actually think we should be doing a bit more of it than we're doing right now, maybe a controversial take, but we cannot go back to what it was, which was, for many professions, five days a week, four days a week, every week, consistent road warrior behavior, which I think really kept a lot of bright minds out of my profession, and I want those bright minds back, who  want to be a part of this organization. So how I think about travel; one of the fallacies of sort of supporting women is that, and I think we've come a long way here, was that sort of, "Oh, this is what I need to do to support women."

Women are not a homogenous group of people. Women have individual needs. I'll just even take a slice of that population and say let's talk about mothers of young children. Mothers of young children have very different setups in life. Some outsource everything, some have family nearby, some have supportive spouses or spouses that are able to provide more support, some have spouses that can provide less support, and so we can't think of these populations as having homogenous needs that you can just support with the check of a box. It's all about having those conversations and saying, "What do you need?" So for example, right now when I look at initiating a project and I'm looking at putting people in roles against that project, I really have those conversations with them to say, this is likely going to involve X amount of travel, what does that mean for you in your life? What support structures do we put in place? Would you prefer to take a different role on this project that maybe has less travel but would allow you to gain a different set of skills?

I also don't want to assume for people and have them miss opportunities that they don't want to travel. I'm not going to make that decision for you. But going back to my apprenticeship theme, which is forever part of the narrative, showing up in person in certain events is extraordinarily important. I am a big believer of in-person interaction. Bringing the travel back and supporting people throughout it is important. So that's when we get into conversations like childcare, like flexible arrangements and other things that allow people to manage. One thing I want to highlight is the reason I say the pandemic has accelerated this path is that we've now proven to everyone who's been alive and paying attention for the last four years that we can work remotely at certain times. We don't always need to be there.

That gives me the optimism that for individuals who at certain stages in their lives and careers need more flexibility, you have to earn that right a little bit and earn the personal brand of your capabilities and your contribution. The post pandemic environment says, "Oh guys, I'm going to miss this trip because I have something going on in my life, but I will be on all the calls and you'll have my support," And maybe five years ago, there would've been eyebrows raised at that. I really think we've moved beyond that. Is there lots to do? Of course, but when I think about the post pandemic career for women in these more high-powered, high stress environments, we have taken on a lot more control than we used to have, and that is valuable.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes, we have. And so as we've listened to you and we hear the passion in your voice and about apprenticeship and the new normal and flexible working arrangement, it's so important for us here at Call In and at ReBoot Accel to learn about someone's personal passion because that's what's motivating you, Nina. That's what's motivating you to lead these initiatives, to do what you do day in and day out. And so personally, we know that you've mentioned that you have a child, but what motivates you personally to champion these causes, these initiatives, and to keep going when we know that not everybody is a cheerleader?

Nina Lapachet: It's a great question. I've certainly done my share of self-reflection. Kudos to my firm, they really encourage a lot of self-reflection or reflection on your purpose and your motivation. And for me, I didn't grow up in this world. I'm the product of a small business owner, entrepreneur and a public servant in Sacramento, California, and I didn't grow up in this world and I sort of happenstance came into it through a series of, call it, lucky life events. It's opened amazing doors for me and it's been more rewarding than I ever could have imagined when I joined as a baby consultant all those years ago. So I think for part of me, for my purpose and ambition and passion has a lot to do with making this accessible, making this life and this opportunity accessible to others. And I believe that those others who maybe aren't part of the traditional path in historically are going to do wonder for this business and for our clients. I work in M and A.

I do large scale deals, I do big transactions. I think having them be the future of this is going to reshape the landscape for M and A. So that could come off as a bit Pollyanna-esque perhaps, but I really see it. I see it in the talent, I see it in the conversations I have with them and the way they just think differently and challenge the status quo. And so my passion and excitement comes from not just getting to have experienced it and getting to bring some people in the door, but my absolute favorite part of the job, no question, hands down, as I go out and I hire these young people out of college, MBAs, other PhDs, BA graduates, and they are brilliant, generally don't know that much about mergers and acquisitions, that's not one of the things we hire for, they're pretty green on the content. And I get to watch them evolve in just a matter of years into these savvy, fierce, creative, insightful, data-driven business advisors, and that evolution is the most rewarding thing that I can imagine from this career.

So I want more women, I want more underrepresented populations from all over to be a part of this career in the future of the M and A landscape, and this is how I'm going to do it.

Diane Flynn: And I'm guessing that those voices, those younger voices, the women's voice add to the bottom line, right? The results, the innovation?

Nina Lapachet: Unquestionably. Yes, it's good for society, it is absolutely good for our business. Our clients are changing shape and format as well. It's funny, it used to be, back in the early days, when I was probably too junior to be in the room, I'd get drug along to meetings so that we had a woman in the meeting to make sure that we... Which was actually great for my career because I got access to things I might not have otherwise had, but now, I don't have that problem anymore. The makeup of my clients, the makeup of my firm, they're all shifting, and so I'm really encouraged by that. I'm not at all done, but I am encouraged by the progress that I'm seeing.

Diane Flynn: So one of my takeaways from what you've said is there is power in in-person relationships, to be sensitive to tailoring to individual needs. But one of the initiatives that we did together, that kicked off during the pandemic, was trying to get women in your industry together in different ways, and for two and a half years we did them online. We had wine nights and book clubs and speakers to bring women together online, and then we moved to in-person when it was safe to do so. What are your thoughts about the online experience versus the in-person experience and what can be learned from that?

Nina Lapachet: I'd be remiss not to say that those events just fill my cup. Diane, you've done such a nice job of facilitating meaningful, thoughtful conversation around important topics, and it's so nice to be surrounded by these smart, powerful, capable women who all work in one of the common threads, the traditionally male dominated fields that they work in. These are women who work in transactions in different capacities. I thought the online versions were great. We got some great feedback from our clients and from our participants around just the spirit of the dialogue that people were really encouraged to get to hear some of these things that they were learning, but it is incomparable to how I felt in my heart of hearts walking out of the first in-person event. Just took it to the next level, from being able to exchange those ideas personally to be able to... The virtual glass of wine is not as tasty as the in-person glass of wine.

Diane Flynn: Definitely not. Although we did send real bottles of wine to people.

Nina Lapachet: We gave them real wine, but somehow it...

Diane Flynn: No one would drink them by themselves on a zoom call, so that wasn't...

Nina Lapachet: Some workplaces do discourage drinking during working. So I agree with you that we need to find, we need to be able to bifurcate between what we want to do together and what we're okay doing apart. And when I think about those two things, forming communities, building structures of trust, building structures of mutual understanding and benefit... I mean, again, I work in M and A, there's a lot of times when people don't understand each other and we need to get in a room and really understand mutual perspectives. In my opinion, that is done far better in person. There are other things that are not the same and we need to be flexible. We survey our own employees, and without going too far into the details, the happiest people, the most engaged people are the people who have found a happy medium. They're not the people who are fully remote, they're not the people who are fully in the office.

Our most engaged employees are the people who have found the right balance for their lives and careers where they're getting appropriate in-person time at the office and appropriate time at home. So I need to be able to trust and empower them to make those decisions for themselves.

Diane Flynn: For my last question, what would you say to the companies or the people who say, "Why should we have events just for women? Who is that helping? How is that helping them?"

Nina Lapachet: In my life and career, I'll speak to my own experience, the sisterhood has been invaluable. Having a space to get together with women who are sharing like experiences and to be able to share them with candor and openness. I've held events at my home with the women from my group just to talk about what is your experience and what is your life? And I learn more about their trajectories and how I can help them from those conversations than I would ever get from a 30 minute chat or at a large scale happy hour with the whole practice.

And so, my personal experience is that every person can be a hundred percent committed to the organization and the commitment to the goals and strategies of your overall organization, whatever it is, but I also believe that that same person craves community and belonging at an intimate scale where they can share like experiences and have meaningful conversations. So for me, growing up through the ranks at what used to be far more male dominated, in a sense, really, we've seen a lot more women come in and grow and move up the ranks and become partners, but coming up that sisterhood was everything to me. It was my lifeline. It was such an important part of my experience, and I think it will be valuable for the women coming behind me as well.

Dr. Alexandria White: Speaking of the women that's coming behind you, I have a freshman in college and it just warms my heart that she will get to interact with women like you that are intentional about advancing the careers of women, advancing the quality of life for women.

Diane Flynn: So Nina, tell us how men can support women.

Nina Lapachet: In so many ways. I will say some of my best mentors growing up in the firm were all men. The first person who looked me in the eye and said, "You are going to be a partner in this firm," Was a man, it was not a woman. I had not thought of myself in that vein until someone actually said it to me. And so, that is a valuable thing. But I think most of all, men can crave and realize their own flexibility requirement. I once, maybe a decade ago, was speaking to a male leader, not at my firm, but outside, and had said one of the best things that you can do for women is to take your paternity leave and take your leave and to sort of play by the same rules that we're playing by and therefore destigmatize different aspects of female career growth, and they looked at me like I was crazy.

If I look today and the progression that we've made, EY offers really wonderful benefits for men around paternity leave, and I see them taking it. And so, really encouraging organizations to be inclusive of all people with things like flexible leave and arrangements so that it destigmatizes individual populations like women, but also just showing up. Don't assume that they want what the guy sitting next... Don't assume that just because they haven't raised their hand and said, "I'm the best in the world, you should pick me," That they're not the best in the world, maybe their approach is more understated. So I challenge the men in my practice who are also so very good at this, and I applaud them for it, but for approaching their female employees as individuals with individual wants and needs, and really understanding how they can play a role in developing those careers.

Diane Flynn: I want to amplify that point about not making assumptions because it's what we hear over and over from any demographic group, "Don't assume because I am a young person, I don't want to be promoted, or I don't want to travel, or I don't want that stretch assignment. I may have the resources at home to cover the home front, and that may be what's in my career trajectory," So just asking the questions. I think you make some really great points about that.

Dr. Alexandria White: And so as we close out, as we think about everything that you've said and the impact of what you are doing, what would you like to leave our listeners with, maybe how they can assist?

Nina Lapachet: What I'd like to leave you with is that I think everyone's a little tired of the constant state of change. I hear that when I'm out, "Everything's been changing, could we just be stable for a little bit?” And yes, I share that, I also long for a level of stability, however we are at such a powerful, important, wonderful inflection point in corporate America, that we cannot squander this opportunity to design a workplace and a way of working that advances, that is inclusive and that advances everyone to meet their potential and is not sort of just defaulting back to the previous way of working. So I'm super optimistic. I encourage managers and leaders of organizations to really think about this as that inflection point, and how are they going to provide the teaching and mentorship and sponsorship and apprenticeship to their people who are coming in? How are they going to deliver that? And how are they also going to recognize that their employees crave flexibility and crave boundaries and make sure that those are met as well? My belief is that there is a happy medium that is not a one size fits all, but that you can't sacrifice either end of that spectrum.

Dr. Alexandria White: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Diane Flynn: Thank you, Nina, for joining us. Great to see you.