Episode 14: Do Women Need to be Better Salary Negotiators?

Why is it so hard to ask for more money... and what leaders can do to help

Transcript

Chris Riback: I'm Chris Riback. This is Call In with Dr. Alexandria White. We discuss business leadership in our time of social change when to call in, when to call out, and how to build sustainable business value today.

Today's topic: Do Women Need to be Better Salary Negotiators?  Before our conversation though, an ask from us to you. We hope you like these call in conversations. And if so, we'd appreciate if you take a moment, go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and if you're so moved, leave a five-star review. The ratings really matter. They go a long way to helping other people find the podcast.

Dr. Alexandria White: Our show is brought to you by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, which is committed to a more diverse and inclusive future. Let's call in.

Chris Riback: Dr. White, great to get to talk with you again.

Dr. Alexandria White: As always, Chris.

Chris Riback: I'm looking forward to this. I know this is a topic that you have cared a great deal about for a long time so let's get right into it. Why is the topic of women negotiating salaries so important to you? Why is it different than a man negotiating salary? Why is it different than a man negotiating a salary?

Dr. Alexandria White: Well, I definitely have a personal experience. I remember getting my first position at a huge university. I was so excited. And I remember when my supervisor called and offered me the position, I was just ecstatic. And she said, "Alex, we are excited to offer you this position at university X. Here is the salary." And I said, "Okay." And she said, "So you accept the offer?" I said, "Yes." And then she said to me, "Alex, why didn't you negotiate your salary?" I paused and I really didn't have an answer.

And she proceeds to tell me, "You always need to negotiate your salary." And I remember I didn't learn that from my family. I didn't learn that in grad school. And I can't recall any previous mentors that had taught me the skill of negotiating. And so this woman said, "I'm going to give you the maximum for this job, but I want you to take this experience and make sure that you learn how to negotiate even in this position and then pass that information on." Of course, she's still my mentor, because I never forget that.

Chris Riback: Yes, that's remarkable. I mean, that's a great statement, not only a personal act of kindness, but what a mentor/manager to be mentoring/managing even before you've taken the actual role. But first, just broadly there's an aspect to the whole topic that we're talking about that makes me wonder and on some level makes me feel just a little bit uncomfortable. Because doesn't saying that women need to be better salary negotiators, which effectively states that they're not so good at it, isn't that stereotyping?

Dr. Alexandria White: Well, not exactly. As I do this work at ReBoot Accel, we coach a lot of women. And one of the things in our coaching meetings is, "I want to negotiate a title change, but I don't want to ask. I want to negotiate a little bit more money." Inflation is real. We know inflation is real, Chris, but I don't have the language. And so there is this dance that is introduced into the conversation. So let's get some facts. A majority of women, 60% according to a staffing firm Randstad US, stated that women never negotiate with an employer for more money. This is what they said.

Chris Riback: Just flat out don't negotiate.

Dr. Alexandria White: Don't negotiate

Chris Riback: "Here's your salary, ma'am" and she says, "Thank you very much. That's great."

Dr. Alexandria White: Right, right. But you know me, I love a good counterargument.

Chris Riback: I do. Yes, you do. I suffer from that in every one of these conversations, but go ahead, Alex, beat me up again.

Dr. Alexandria White: And so I continued to look. And so USC in October 2021 found that men and women are equally bad at it. Researchers found 43% of participants did not negotiate at all. And so I had to put that out there, but for the premise of our conversation, we do want to take the focus of women and their negotiating skills.

I think when we talk about negotiating for me, for women that I coach, it's kind of scary or I don't want to seem pushy or what if I don't get it? And what will they think of me just for asking for things? And when I coach men in some of my cases, most of my cases, "Oh, I'm going to ask. What's the worst that they can say? No."

Sometimes the socialization, cultural norms, which we'll talk about a little bit more also impact negotiations in the workplace. So, no, it is not stereotyping. There is some data to support it.

Chris Riback: And I want to identify two other sets of data that I know ReBoot has put together that really for me brought some of this home. One fact that ReBoot identified was that at the beginning when you get your salary, a difference of $5,000 in that starting, that $5,000 invested and compounded over 40 years is nearly a $1.4 million difference.

Second piece of data that was interesting and I'm curious if this rings true to you found that women were significantly better at negotiating for others than they are for themselves. Does that ring true to you?

Dr. Alexandria White: It does. That statistic that we're better than advocating for others than ourselves is so true.

Chris Riback: Alex, your personal story that you mentioned was around your taking your first role or a first role with a new organization. What about women who return to work after a career pause? Do they frequently face the same challenges or apprehensions around negotiating?

You had mentioned how this was your first role. You were so grateful. You really kind of weren't even in the mindset to think about negotiating, because you were grateful for the role. And listen, there is space for gratitude in all of this, of course, but talk to me about women returning to the workforce after a career pause.

Dr. Alexandria White: Many feel that they don't have the skillset. And so it's interesting and you know the story of ReBoot Accel, the CEO, founder Diane Flynn created it based off the premise that she took a break to raise her kids. And she wanted to give the tools to women on how to return to the workforce and be current. And so a lot of people returning to the workforce, women included, "Do I even have the skills to ask for a salary?"

Chris Riback: And how about the self-worth? Do I have the self-worth after years of not getting a paycheck?

Dr. Alexandria White: Correct, correct. And so now LinkedIn actually has that feature because we want to show that just because you have been a stay-at-home mother or taken a break, that you still have required essential qualities and skills to be an asset to a company.

Chris Riback: Do you have any concern that with the Great Resignation that we all have read about and the outsized role, some of the data have shown that women have had an outsized proportion of the number of people leaving the workforce? Any concerns that not only might this become more common, but even perhaps more acceptable?

Dr. Alexandria White: And so I think it's incumbent upon companies to know that. So we talk about making space and a sense of belonging. That's what I do for companies and organizations. And so how do we fix this? Is we know that the Great Resignation has a correlation to people not being able to balance being professionals, parents, caregivers, homeschool teachers.

And so what can companies do? What is the responsibility of these companies to stop the Great Resignation and also amplify voices for people who want to have flexible work arrangements will be aware. 

Chris Riback: Negotiating doesn't just mean salary, does it? It could mean flexible hours. It could mean fees to help with the move. It could mean some other component of one's work-life balance. It's important I would think to think about negotiating in a broad sense, not just a narrow salary sense. Is that right?

Dr. Alexandria White: Oh yes. Technology fees. As we do this podcast, laptop, ring light, mic.

Chris Riback: You mean I can send you an invoice for all that stuff, Alex? Thank you.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes. So negotiate that. Signing bonus, parking spots, commute. Chris, gas. Can you throw a gas card in there possibly? There's different ways to negotiate and it's just not about salary. Sometimes these things that people negotiate improves their quality of life, which makes them a better employee, which could help with the Great Resignation.

Chris Riback: And I know that one thing that people also can consider negotiating for is professional development is some type of coaching support. I wanted to ask you, Alex, because the topic also entered the news a few months ago. I know you saw it. Former Pepsi CEO Indra Nooyi released her then new book “My Life in Full.” And in an interview with the New York Times Magazine, she said she'd never, ever, ever asked for a raise.

And when asked why she said, "I find it cringeworthy. I cannot imagine working for somebody and saying, 'My pay is not enough.'" Now I read that and I was like, "Wow. I mean, this is one of the most powerful people in the world." I mean, CEO of Pepsi, able to lead, hundreds of thousands, certainly tens of thousands employees globally. And this may be my own naivete. I was surprised that that component for someone who clearly has such capability, that that would be an area of personal concern. What did you think when you heard that? Were you surprised?

Dr. Alexandria White: Oh, very much surprised. I have great admiration for Indra. She's a trailblazer in so many ways, talking to companies about family support. I just follow her across all social media and anything that she writes. However, I don't necessarily agree with her statement regarding negotiation.

As a woman, especially a woman of color, it's necessary for me to ask for equal pay for equal work. My personal example at the introduction, that was my aha moment. And I negotiate everything. I negotiate insurance. I negotiate buying a car, everything. And once it kind of goes back to that stat. Once you start at the beginning, there's no going back.

Chris Riback: Yes, that extra five grand.

Dr. Alexandria White: That extra five grand, that the ability to know that you can ask. If you want something, ask for it within reason. Let's put that in there. But I was taken aback from that because I understand that women in the workplace sometimes were underpaid. We don't have the same access to networks. We don't have the same professional development opportunities. And so we have to have an empowerment to understand that it's okay to ask. And if you don't get it, what's the alternative?

And so I understand what she's saying, Indra's saying, but for me you have to understand the context. And sometimes it's a cultural thing. There are some cultures that might not feel comfortable being so aggressive or in your face with their needs and their wants. Not all, but I've had this conversation. We had this conversation even before we started recording this podcast is what are the nuances? When, where, how do people grow up? How are they socialized that gives them the audacity to negotiate salaries?

Chris Riback: Also, it's good to practice negotiating, is it not?

Dr. Alexandria White: Oh yes. So I believe in being brave and scared at the same time. And sometimes when I'm having a difficult conversation or asking a supervisor for a title change or an increase in professional development, I'll ask my partner, my mom, even my daughter, "Can you role-play with me?" My daughter usually rolls her eyes, But can you role-play with me and not give me what I want and say, 'Well, no, I can't do this.'"

And so I practice those conversations to myself, to people in my network when I am negotiating salaries. It has helped me if I get nervous, if I'm not able to answer a question, it's kind of like preparing for trial and being prepped by your lawyer. And so I do practice and I do encourage my coaching clients to do the same to find someone to speak to it about, yes.

Chris Riback: I assume it's like anything. I mean, how often do we come out of any type of conversation and it's only afterwards that we say, "Oh, wait, why didn't I say this or why didn't I think of this?" And by rehearsing anything, certainly in this instance negotiating salary or other capabilities, it just prepares you. I would assume you just kind of get your brain ready for the conversation. Very quickly before we get to my favorite part as you know, Dr. White's Wisdom.

What's the responsibility of senior managers, male and female, in this? You told the wonderful story of your wonderful manager at the very top of this conversation. I don't know whether you feel that was her "responsibility" or whether that was an act of grace or kindness, but what's the responsibility of senior managers male and female in terms of making sure that anyone, but in this case, women, negotiate properly on behalf of themselves?

Dr. Alexandria White: Well, first being aware, aware that there are some discrepancies in regards to women negotiating their salaries. Just be aware. And then your awareness turns to education. So what can we do at company X to help mitigate this and fix this? One thing that we can do at company X is to, well, let's see what we're already doing. Let's get that pay equity analysis. And let's assess even in the various demographics in that pay equity analysis underrepresented groups, women." And then in addition, not only let's look at that, but in this virtual world, let's look at are we paying women the same, whether they're remote, hybrid or in-person?

So overall, the responsibility of senior management male and female, C-suite, overall company leadership is to analyze what they're doing and how they are advancing and retaining women, and what they need to fix and work on. Also, continue to empower women at your companies, underrepresented groups to negotiate. There's a professional development opportunity that companies can have, "Hey, quarterly, let's have a negotiation seminar asking for what you wanted this company and what can we provide to you within recent, and also help with retention in that regard."

Chris Riback: Alex, I feel like this is yet another conversation where we really need you for tactical tips as well. We need Dr. White's Wisdom. Do women need to be better salary negotiators and if so, how?

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes they do. I know you stated it earlier that women are better negotiating for others. Well, if you're listening, take your own advice. Let's take our own advice when we negotiate for others, which is women. Let's do our research, check out Glassdoor, learn the range of the salary for the position that you want. Know that everything is negotiable. That signing bonus, that parking spot, PTO, professional development. And then when you're asking for that, sell your ask, which means be prepared with data, numbers, initiatives from either your past experience or what you're doing now.

Offer alternatives. In this virtual world, ask for technology allowance, hybrid work arrangements, coming in the office three days a week, stay-at-home too. Use your networks and resources. We talked about it. Practice what you're going to say. Role-play the conversation. Have someone read your email. If you have the advantage to emailing the hiring person your negotiation, look at it, have someone else look at it. Know the politics of your potential employer and your current employer. Is this a new position? How do you evaluate success in this position? How will it be measured? And of course, there's always understanding negotiate within reason.

There's a difference between believing you're worth it and actually saying it. So practice, practice, practice. And then I tell people all the time, "In the end, know you're worth and then add tax." In the end, know your worth and then add tax.

Chris Riback: Alex, anything that you would like to negotiate right now in terms of this podcast extending things? I'm a little bit afraid.

Dr. Alexandria White: If you could send some gas cards. That'd be perfect. I think I would like to put that into the conversation some gas cards, please?

Chris Riback: Terrific. And I would like to negotiate with you and increase in my salary. Could you double it, please?

Dr. Alexandria White: Sell it to me, Chris, sell it to me.

Chris Riback: Well, I'll have to do that another time. Alex, thank you as always. Talk to you soon. 

Dr. Alexandria White: Talk to you soon. Goodbye, Chris.