Episode 4: Is There a Jon Gruden Hiding in Your Organization?

Following the discovery of Las Vegas Raiders coach Jon Gruden's homophobic, racist and misogynistic emails, Chris Riback & Dr. Alexandria White explore: What does one coach’s email trail have to do with inclusive leadership? How can leaders build internal cultures that protect against this happening in their organizations?

Transcript

Chris Riback: I'm Chris Riback. This is Call In with Dr. Alexandria White. We discuss business leadership in our time of social change when to call in, when to call out, and how to build sustainable business value today.

Today's topic: Is there a Jon Gruden hiding in your organization? Before our conversation though, an ask from us to you. We hope you like these call in conversations. And if so, we'd appreciate if you take a moment, go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and if you're so moved, leave a five-star review. The ratings really matter. They go a long way to helping other people find the podcast.

Dr. Alexandria White: Our show is brought to you by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, which is committed to a more diverse and inclusive future. Let's call in.

Chris Riback: Dr. White, great to get to talk with you again.

Dr. Alexandria White: Hello, Chris.

Chris Riback: I hope you're doing well. Let's get right into it. By now, we've all either read them, or read about them. Alex, what did you think when you read the emails from the  Raiders Head Coach, Jon Gruden?

Dr. Alexandria White: I think they were inexcusable. They were hurtful, deplorable. As we mentioned in our part one of this discussion, the internet does not have a delete button. And when I read those emails, Chris, I thought about the people that were impacted by those emails, his players, his family, his friends, people of color, people with different sexual orientations. And I thought about how they must feel knowing that such a prominent man said those things about them.

Chris Riback: I'd like to pick up on what you just said, though, because this is the part where things start to get more interesting, more nuanced, and where – for companies out there, and leaders out there –  the lessons and realities of what happened with Jon Gruden can become directly applicable. So, first of all, you just mentioned that our previous conversation was, should companies remember if the internet never forgets? Do you see this Jon Gruden situation as parallel to that? Is this about a company in this case, the NFL, or the Oakland Raiders taking some type of action because the internet will never forget?

Dr. Alexandria White: This is not cancel culture to me. This is accountability culture. It is holding Jon Gruden accountable for the deplorable things that he said. In the NFL, the Raiders, and let's not forget ESPN because he also worked for them as well, they have to take the notion that while it was from 2011 to 2018, seven years, and they still have to hold him accountable for the words that they said. They also should be held accountable. We'll talk a little bit more about that, but right now he is being held accountable for his actions.

Chris Riback: I realize this sounds like the most naive question, and I don't mean it that way. How could this go on for so long? Some of these Gruden emails went back 10 years, Alex.

Dr. Alexandria White: Oh, it's quite simple. There was a lack of allies. There was a lack of active bystanders, and there were no upstanders. So what's the difference? An upstander is someone who would have took immediate action as soon as they saw one of those homophobic, sexist emails in their inbox, straight up the chain. There were too many people who remained silent in the premise of, "Oh, that's just Jon. Let's just belong to go along. You know what? This is business. He's talented. We'll just kind of overlook some of those statements."

Chris Riback: And what do you mean a lack of allies?

Dr. Alexandria White: An ally is someone who would have seen those emails and said, "Wait a minute, he's saying something disparaging against the LGBTQ population, or people of color. I need to say something." And an ally might have even approached Jon themselves and said, "Hey, I received this email that I just don't agree with. And I feel this is inappropriate for our company." That's an ally, an intentional ally. How many people didn't say anything, and just laughed it off, and just kept the email thread going? That's where it went wrong. And that's why it went on for so long.

Chris Riback: I was struck by a headline in the Atlantic. It was an analysis piece by Jemele Hill, a well-known writer, and the headline was "Jon Gruden Just Put It in Writing."

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Chris Riback: And the subhead was "The deposed Raiders coach expressed bigoted attitudes that are all too common in the NFL." My question for you, Alex, given what you were just saying: Is this challenge just with the NFL?

Dr. Alexandria White: We know that the NFL has had its challenges, athletes, domestic violence incidents, Colin Kaepernick, pay, medical things with concussions. But when people say "Is the challenge just with the NFL?" The NFL is made up of people. And so we have to correct the people. It doesn't run by itself. It's going to take the work of the people in the franchise, the entity, the company, the organization. And what does that look like?

It takes personal work to tackle that challenge. Personally, what could you have done if a Jon Gruden was in your inbox, or you received that email? Can't just rely on, "Oh, it's the NFL." That looks like strategic diversity training. It looks like accountability, accountability, and accountability. And last but not least when you are wrong, you have to be transparent about why you were wrong because we know that there's a call right now for the rest of the emails to be released. So this isn't over. We might have a part three, Chris.

Chris Riback: Yes, we might. I think there are, like, 650,000 emails.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Chris Riback: Trying to broaden the lens, listening to what you're saying, do we all have Jon Grudens in our organizations and don't know it?

Dr. Alexandria White: We have Jon Grudens in our organizations. There's someone listening right now who has a Jon Gruden in their organization.

Chris Riback: Is it a problem that a person sent an email, said an off-color statement, made an inappropriate comment, or are you saying that most organizations have an ongoing, almost systematic expression of this type of stuff by an individual, and because of internal pressure, cultural pressure, nothing has been done about it? Is this something that every organization has to look internally, and think about?

Dr. Alexandria White: Definitely. How many times have we seen this happen where a CEO, someone in the C-suite, "Oh, he always said sexist comments,”

Chris Riback: Right.

Dr. Alexandria White: We let it go, and becomes pervasive. It's part of the culture. "Oh, she's been here for 20 years. It's okay." And we let it go. There's people, there's human resources departments right now that have emails, and conversations, and probably recorded Zoom Rooms where someone has said something inappropriate. And those human resources department executives are battling, how are we going to deal with this? Do we say anything? And who is it? What's their title, their status, their network? And it's up to companies and organizations made up of people to be allies, to be intentional, and to be strategic so that they will not be in the 24 hour news cycle regarding something as egregious as emails that we've witnessed from Jon Gruden.

Chris Riback: So let's talk about people: You just said, "That's just Jon being Jon. That's just Sally being Sally. Sally has done this job for 20 years. She's the best person for this job." And a lot of the focus has been on diversity, and diversity of leadership, whether it's owners, or coaches. The NFL, in 2003 implemented the Rooney Rule. They require league teams to interview ethnic minority candidates for head coaching, and senior football operations jobs. And variations of that rule, in fact, are now in place in other industries. So some of the pushback to the wider spread condemnation that goes beyond Gruden's emails is: Aren't we post-race? Shouldn't we be in the situation where the best person gets the job? Okay, I understand Gruden's emails. Yes, these go beyond the bounds, but the stuff that Sally did, yes, it's not great, but Sally's the best person for the job, she's been doing it for 20 years.

Dr. Alexandria White: Your credentials, or expertise should not trump your ability to be an inclusive leader, period.

Chris Riback: Why do you rate one more important than the other?

Dr. Alexandria White: Because it is a domino effect. If Sally has been doing this for 20 years, and someone becomes a whistleblower.

Dr. Alexandria White: And someone who's worked with Sally for years and years and years, and it was a subject to that hostile working environment. They have a lawsuit. Speaking of that, let's talk about Tesla. Tesla had a Jon Gruden in their midst, and an employee in Tesla, an African-American male let the company know numerous times, "I'm in a hostile working environment, even though the person that I'm working with is probably a good employee." And what happened, Chris, Tesla had to give a $137 million payout to this man. And so the expertise, credentials, education, network should not trump when someone should be held accountable for their actions, because it can have a devastating impact to a company.

Chris Riback: How preemptive then do companies need to be? How preemptive can companies be? Do they need to do a preemptive forensic investigation to somehow make sure that this is not happening within their organizations?

Dr. Alexandria White: Well, if you have a culture that exemplifies inclusivity and welcoming all people and belonging, people who don't agree with it sometimes weed themselves out, or if there's a potential employee that wants to work for this company, and they do this research and they say, "Ph, they have a diversity statement. They have a diversity office. Hmm, I don't think I would work well with that company." Sometimes how you present yourself as a company weeds out the Jon Grudens, but you've got to do the work as a company. In this work I help companies do diversity statements and have metrics, and strategic planning, three to five year strategic plans for companies. I make sure that they are not only walking the walk, they're talking the talk. They're putting the money towards diversity, equity, inclusion. And if you've got that culture, people who might want to say some disparaging comments, no, it is not welcome here. And they can tone down any rhetoric that might be harmful.

Chris Riback: What about customers? What should fans of the NFL? What should customers of the NFL? What should customers of Tesla? What should customers do?

Dr. Alexandria White: So, we know we're in a 24 hour news cycle. And so what I tell people when they engage with me about, well, what should we do? I say, “Let's listen first. Let's get all the information first. Let's get a timeline together because I'm strategic in how I want to approach this.” Was it one? Was it just one email that someone went and found, or was it multiple emails? Is it a podcast? Is there a former article that this person wrote?" And so I believe it's important for fans and customers to listen first, get all the information, and then the accountability begins.

You tell them you're not going to buy their products. You want to see some change. You want to see some diversity in the room. You want to see continuous initiatives regarding inclusive cultures, not just when things get put into the new cycle, but you want to see this continuously. You want to see diversity in marketing. You want to see internal campaigns for employees, stakeholders, organizations. You hold them accountable. And there's so many ways now that you do that. I mean, petitions, emails, TikTok. If you go to TikTok now, and type in Jon Gruden, you will see a vast array of answers from young people, TikTok users, influences on what needs to be done. Using social media to hold companies accountable is just one way that fans, or customers are utilizing their leverage.

Chris Riback: What can the NFL do now? What should the NFL do now?

Dr. Alexandria White: I think they have a list of things. What's been lost, first, for me, is trust. What about his players? What about the players? They worked for this man. And we know that one of his players is one of the first openly gay NFL players.

Chris Riback: Yes. Carl Nassib.

Dr. Alexandria White:   Correct. How is he failing? I just read an article that he actually took a day off.

Chris Riback: Yes, he took a mental health day, exactly, the day after.

Dr. Alexandria White: He trusted him, and that broken trust has impacted the players, the players' families, the Las Vegas Raiders' community. And so how do you build that trust back? You build that trust back by being transparent, by saying this was wrong. We're going to hold ourselves accountable. And let's not forget who were those enablers? Who were those people that sat back, and read those emails, and laughed at those? Where are they? And how can they be held accountable? And so players, employees, fans, we are all in this cycle right now. And so I'm thinking about my favorite NFL team. And I'm wondering do they have a Jon Gruden, right? It impacts people in so many ways. And so those are the things. Build that trust back by accountability, transparency, and holding those people, those enablers accountable as well.

Chris Riback: Alex, as always, we end as you know, with my favorite part of these conversations, Dr. White's Wisdom. This is where we learn from you. What specific tactics can, should business leaders take to address the issues of the day? As we've discussed throughout this conversation, this is about the NFL in terms of the news, but this is about organizations. I feel like the wisdom we could use from Dr. White includes, what should a company do to ever prevent this from happening? What responsibility do companies have to ensure their internal culture would root this out if it ever emerged? And to that point, how can companies create, nurture, and maintain that type of productive culture that you were just talking about?

Dr. Alexandria White: Nothing is foolproof, Chris, but how can we prevent this from becoming pervasive? You do that by creating a culture where this is unacceptable. It's immediately called out. Regardless of status, title, or network. You have different people in the room. You have different demographics, diversity of thought, people who don't all look the same. And when you have that in that space, it allows people to look around who's in the room. And if I'm going to say anything that is harmful, let me rethink that because this room is so diverse that I might need to consider how my speech can be harmful. That is how you prevent this from happening. You have diversity of thought, you have diversity of people, and you make it known that this is unacceptable. So how do you maintain it? It's not a one and done thing.

I look forward to seeing what the Raider's franchise is going to do. This is so important. What is their next move? Who is going to consult with them on how to move forward? Do we do a town hall? Do we issue an apology statement? Who should we hire next?

Dr. Alexandria White: Are we making a policy? Is this something else that's pervasive? You've got to do the work across the board. And that starts on the macro-level from leadership issuing statements that this is unacceptable to the micro-level, policies, exit interviews for people who have left. You've got to do the work to nurture and maintain this type of inclusive culture. It's called being proactive.

Chris Riback: Alex, in listening to you, two thoughts really are coming to mind. One is you are making an argument, I believe, for focusing on this culture that answers the question that many people have, which is, okay, I know that it's nice to have an inclusive culture, but come on now. It's really just about making some people feel more comfortable. It's about creating a safe space. And what you're arguing, I think, is no, there's actually a very practical, and a financial bottom line to ensuring that this type of culture exists. That there is preventatively, preemptively a lot of benefit that can accrue from taking those types of actions. It's more than just creating a safe space for people who others might think are too sensitive.

The second thing that I hear you saying is there may be an opportunity here for the Las Vegas Raiders. There may be an opportunity for leading their community beyond just their company, beyond just the team, leading their community, and maybe beyond, depending on how they choose to take the conversation going forward. Have I heard you correctly?

Dr. Alexandria White: You have heard me correctly. I'm not here to change everyone's heart and mind. I just want us to come to an understanding that we want to build a society where people do not have to encounter these types of statements. The statements were harsh. They were hurtful. And so it's about humanity. I think that's what it is. It's about humanity. And now let's talk about the business part. It can be detrimental to the bottom line. Sponsors, potential players who might not want to work in that atmosphere. And so we have to think about that in that regard. Also, you talked a little bit about the Las Vegas Raiders being the experiment, the example on how to handle this.It's an opportunity for them to show going forward this is how we are as a franchise. This is where we went wrong, and we're going to do better. So while this has been a stain on their reputation, they have got to use this as a challenge, and an opportunity to do better.

Chris Riback: Many eyes will be on them, including yours.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Chris Riback: Alex, thank you. Thank you as always for your time.

Dr. Alexandria White:   Thank you.