Episode 20: Bringing Inclusive Practices from Work to the Thanksgiving Table

With holidays approaching, the same inclusive leadership skills that work at the office can also work outside the office.

Transcript

Chris Riback: Alex, great to see you again. How are you?

Dr. Alexandria White: I'm doing well, Chris.

Chris Riback: Alex, as you know well, this podcast focuses on the workplace, what you and I and others call inclusive leadership in action, but with Thanksgiving around the corner, perhaps we should spend one episode discussing instead of inclusive leadership in action, inclusive leadership at the Thanksgiving table. And who knows, perhaps listeners are having work colleagues over for the holidays. So there's our work angle. What do you think? Does that that make sense, Alex?

Dr. Alexandria White: It sure does.

Chris Riback: Terrific. Let's introduce now, Diane Flynn, who you work with. Hi Diane, how are you?

Diane Flynn: Hey, Chris. Hey, Alex.

Chris Riback: So Diane, you are Alex's partner at ReBoot Accel.

Diane Flynn: Alex and I at ReBoot Accel spend a lot of time with clients, especially women and underrepresented groups, coaching them on best practices in the workplace for inclusive leadership, and for using their voice. And one of the  popular topics that we present on is around having difficult conversations.

And so the question we've been getting from a lot of our clients lately is, "Oh my gosh, it's almost time to have Thanksgiving with a lot of people we haven't sat at the dinner table with two or three years. And how do we approach certain topics that are going to be sensitive and challenging?" So that's why we're excited to come today and talk about this.

Chris Riback: And I'm excited to jump in on it because my sense is that you are right. It comes up surely often at the workplace. And it led me to wonder, Diane, inclusion in the home often can be as challenging, maybe even more challenging, as inclusion in the workplace.

So maybe could you give just a quick overview based on the work that you do with companies, are there workplace skills that we should bring to the Thanksgiving table?

Diane Flynn: Absolutely. There is a good framework for having difficult conversations, and much of that involves having good listening skills. And if you're going to have these difficult conversations at the dinner table, one needs to know how to listen. Would you like me to share some of those tips?

Chris Riback: One needs to know how to listen. Yes. And what other tips might you have?

Diane Flynn: Well, I have a whole bunch of tips that Alex and I work with are clients around opening up dialogue around difficult conversations and being a good listener. Let me share a few of those.

Chris Riback: Please.

Diane Flynn: Whenever you enter into a difficult conversation, we always say start with knowing your goals. If it's really to get something off your chest or to try to change someone's heart or mind that's been entrenched for two decades, probably not the best goal.

If however, your goal is to learn something new or share your belief in the hopes of maybe changing a mind or just to get to mutual understanding, those are good goals. So we always say start with a goal and then start with what do you both agree on? Sometimes this is referred to as a gem statement. We both want the best for our country, or we both want the best educational system. What do we both, healthcare, what do we all agree on? Let's start there. Because usually there is something that we agree on.

And then we always say, "Go to your mindset." Is your mindset one, to listen and understand. I love a quote I heard somewhere. It says, "I try to learn something from everyone I speak with." And if you approach the dinner conversation with the intent to learn, that's often called a growth mindset, which is another topic that's popular from Carol Dweck that we do in our work. Then chances are you're going to have a more interesting and calm conversation.

So your mindset listening, grant the courtesy of silence. Let people talk, be calm, be respectful, have an open mind. Try to approach conversations. This is really hard, but free of judgment. And in a spirit of curiosity, if somebody makes a statement you don't agree with, instead of a lot of us are inclined to pound them with our belief because most of us, as Steven Covey says, "Are planning our retort response while we're listening."

If you're really listening out of curiosity without judgment, then you are not doing that. You are asking powerful questions. So you might come back with, "That's a new fact I hadn't heard about. Tell me what led you to that belief? What are the facts backing that up, help me understand. I want to learn more. I want to know why you think that way."

Those are all good ways to open up conversation and then restate what you heard, verify their feelings, "I hear you." You can say, "I hear you," without agreeing. And remember, the goal isn't often to walk away in agreement. It's often to learn something new about the other person's perspective and then finally just know when to move on. There are some conversations probably not worth having over a turkey breast. Move on.

Chris Riback: And in listening to you, you have sparked curiosity in my mind. And Alex, the tips that Diane just gave, those are tips taken from the workplace. Those are tips taken from the work that you and Diane do with companies, with C-suites, with employees every day.

Chris Riback: So when we agree maybe on yes, at 100,000 foot level, we want the best healthcare. Yes, we all agree on that, but it devolves quickly. So should I just not even go there at the Thanksgiving dinner table? Should I not even go there in the workplace meeting?

Dr. Alexandria White: Okay, so let's start with the Thanksgiving dinner table because it's around food and I like food.

Chris Riback: Yes, I was going to say I'm hungry too. Good. Let's go there.

Dr. Alexandria White: Thanksgiving is associated with family, food, fellowship, all that you, and sometimes especially this year, we haven't seen people in maybe two years because of the pandemic.

And so we all have to think about discussing these hot topics over dinner and whether to agree or disagree or let me understand you. And also what Diane said, "I don't have to agree with you, but I just want to understand you." But we know hurt feelings, fractured relationships, anger, alienation, high emotion, disappointing outcomes can happen.

So it goes back to what is your overall goal, in the workplace and at home? We are more than our titles. We don't miraculously change our views when we clock in or log in at eight or five in the evening. And so you have to understand that the Thanksgiving table, holiday events, sometimes this might happen. And so I want to give you a macro look into how can you understand that. Do you even want to go there? So here are four things that you might want to consider.

Chris Riback: Yes?

Dr. Alexandria White: Time. Can you pause and talk about this another time?

Place. I mentioned, is it at the company place or the Thanksgiving table? Is it in one-on-one? Is it in a group? Are you by yourself? Is it over the phone? Just the place. Just consider the place where you are.

Manner. You  know your triggers better than anyone else. Are you triggered? Would you be able to keep your composure in this place? Should it be, "Let me work on my breathing, let me count to 10." Or, "In this time I know I'm triggered. Let me remove myself." And that can be at work or at home.

Then relationship. We are more than our titles. We have other people that we interact with. We're not islands. So what's your relationship to the people or relationship to the people when you're having this conversation, or uncomfortable conversations, or like we like to say courageous conversation?

Time, place, manner, and relationship,

Chris Riback: Time, place, manner, relationship. I've got it. I also find myself wondering, and Diane, maybe I'll start with you on this one. Is it the same behavior? Is demonstrating inclusion, is creating an inclusive environment, what I sometimes think of as constructive inclusion, is it the same sets of skills and approach in the workplace as it is at home?

Diane Flynn: I think it is because we always talk in our inclusive leadership training about starting with your mindset, having the mindset of wanting everyone to belong. And it's really smart business because why pay someone a 100% and get 70% out of them? And it's smart at home, why not value the person sitting around the table with you?

So to me it's as fundamental as respecting other human beings. To me, that's what inclusion is all about. Everyone is interesting in their own way and it's on us to figure out what do they bring into the world?

Chris Riback: That's such a fascinating dynamic. Respecting other people versus desiring to change people's minds, which you both have talked about.

Dr. Alexandria White: Exactly.

Chris Riback: And changing the goal, thinking about the goal and focusing a bit more on generating respect for an individual as opposed to the goal being, trying to change someone's mind. That's a really powerful takeaway.

Diane Flynn: Most of the research on leadership suggests that the best leaders are the best listeners. And we always tell people, "Focus on being interested over being interesting and that will cause you to be a better questioner and better listener."

Chris Riback: And so, Alex, let's put a point on this with some of the challenging topics. We've talked about some of them in these conversations that can occur in the workplace, can occur at the Thanksgiving dinner table, and particularly in this framework that we're discussing of respecting other people versus trying to change minds.

Why don't we start with gender language? How does that get handled in the workplace and at the dinner table?

Dr. Alexandria White: Oh, get this all the time. Or, "I'm not going to call them they. They look like a male or female. I'm going to call them what I think they should be." We get it all the time. We get it in the workplace and we're talking about meeting with your family and friend during Thanksgiving. We get it. Your not understanding is valid.

However, that person's feelings and wanting to be properly called what they would like to be called is also valid. And so we all grew up, most of us, most listeners, grew up with this Golden Rule thing, treat others how you want to be treated. You know, Chris. Your mom taught you.

Chris Riback: I know the Golden Rule, for sure.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Chris Riback: Why do you think I treat you so nicely?

Dr. Alexandria White: You do. But I want to interject the Platinum Rule, especially in the workplace, which it can go over to your personal relationship. And the Platinum Rule is treat others how they want to be treated. It is putting the focus on them.

And so if you want to be called by a certain pronoun, I am going to call you that because I would want someone to do the same for me. Using people's pronouns is one way of showing just respect and care. You might not understand it, but we want to err on the side of inclusion and humanity and then maybe ask for clarification. And if you don't want to ask for clarification, maybe do your own research.

Let's go with the caveat that no one has to educate you. They don't have to do it. If they like to have a conversation with you, they will. But now it's on you.

Chris Riback: That is such a great point. It's not their responsibility. They shouldn't have to take that on. It's not their job, it's not their responsibility.

So we just talked about gender inclusion. What about wokeness?

Dr. Alexandria White: Oh, man.

Chris Riback:  I hear this all the time. I'm sure you do too. People either hate wokeness or are enraged at someone who doesn't get it, i.e aren't woke. And so one, could you just define it really quickly for us? What is wokeness and how should we deal with that at work? And at the Thanksgiving table?

Dr. Alexandria White: Webster Dictionary, wokeness was added in 2017. Oxford also added it in 2017. It is the awareness of and actively attentive to important facts and issues, there we go, especially issues of race and social justice. There's the definition. There's a spectrum of being woke. And guess what? You can be woke on one topic and not so woke on the other. It's not finite people.

It just means that you're generally alert to a specific topic, mostly racial and social justice. And so as humans, we all want to be more aware of eq uity and the advances that we all have so that we can make the world a better place. So ask yourself, whenever I hear that, "Oh, that's just too woke." What does too woke mean for you? And how does it align with your personal responsibility?

And then for the people who say, "Oh, I can't interact with them or this group of people because they're too woke." Step back, have the conversation with yourself, with where does that come from? Be available for balanced feedback, maybe in a conversation with people that you feel might be too woke.

Be ready to listen, as Diane mentioned, and just unpack it. So just a quick analysis on so-called wokeness, too woke, is it good or bad? All of that.

Chris Riback: Diane, a lot of lessons here. Bring us home. Whether it's trying to create inclusion in a meeting, in a conference room, in an office building in Menlo Park, or if it's trying to create a constructive inclusion with four generations sitting at the Thanksgiving dinner table. How do you think about all of that?

Diane Flynn: Well, I don't have Dr. White's Wisdom, but I have Flynn's Final Words, so we'll go with that.

Chris Riback: I love it. I love it.

Diane Flynn: Another thing we teach is around asking powerful questions. And again, it goes hand in hand with being a good listener is being a good questioner and getting beyond the yes or no close ended questions into something that really deepens and enriches the relationship, whether it's in the workplace with your manager, your direct report, your colleague, or around the dinner table.

And since we're talking about Thanksgiving right now, I'm going to share a few ideas you might consider that will keep the conversation going and keep it positive. One of our favorite traditions, we've done it for 34 years now, is to go around the table and have everybody share one thing they're thankful for. That is simple. It can span four year olds and 100 year olds. Everyone can participate and it always keeps it positive.

There's a few other conversation starters you might consider. We have tried, "Describe one positive thing or one thing you admire about the person to your right." And that's sometimes laughter, sometimes tears, always something poignant.

You could try, which we have, what's one thing you did this year where you stepped out of your comfort zone? Or perhaps a memory you will never forget from this year or a goal for next year? That's typically more often done at the New Year's table, but sometimes we've done it at Thanksgiving and you could try something light. What's a funny memory from this year?

Any of those powerful questions, get people sharing, include everybody around the table, and give everyone the chance to listen.

Chris Riback: That's interesting.

Diane Flynn: Again, I would sum it up with focus on being interested this year over being interesting and see what you might learn from your friends, colleagues, neighbors and family.         

Chris Riback: Interested over interesting. I think that you've helped set our tone for Thanksgiving and our goal for next year, and I think it'll all be fine. Just so long as neither one of you get between me and my second helping, third helping, of sweet potatoes.

At that point there's no inclusion. Alex, I can't include you on that.

Dr. Alexandria White: Okay.

Chris Riback: Alex, thank you as always. Diane, thank you for joining us.

Diane Flynn: Thank you. It was fun.

Chris Riback: Talk to you both soon.