Episode 2: Can Men Still Be Mentors to Women?
Chris Riback & Dr. Alexandria White discuss: Why men should continue to serve as mentors to women today — and what A.C.T.I.O.N. all parties can take to make it work.
Transcript
Chris Riback: I'm Chris Riback. This is Call In with Dr. Alexandria White. We discuss business leadership in our time of social change when to call in, when to call out, and how to build sustainable business value today.
Today's topic, can men still be mentors to women? Before our conversation though, an ask from us to you. We hope you like these call in conversations. And if so, we'd appreciate if you take a moment, go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and if you're so moved, leave a five-star review. The ratings really matter. They go a long way to helping other people find the podcast.
Dr. Alexandria White: Our show is brought to you by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, which is committed to a more diverse and inclusive future. Let's call in.
Chris Riback: Hi, Dr. White. Great to talk with you again.
Dr. Alexandria White: Hello Chris, how are things?
Chris Riback: Things are good. I am ready and excited to get into the discussion with you. Alex, all of our topics are complex, but this one might be even just a little bit more so, can men still be mentors to women? I want to start with two stats from Lean In and SurveyMonkey. The first one, 60% of managers who are men in the US and 40% of managers who are men in the UK are uncomfortable participating in a common work activity with a woman, such as mentoring, working alone or socializing together. Senior level men, is the second stat, are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior women than junior men across a range of basic work activities, such as one-on-one meetings, travel and work dinners. Alex, I know we all feel we know the reasons, but I think it will be most helpful to get the landscape from you. Why is there such discomfort and how would you characterize that discomfort, if it exists, from the perspective of male mentors or women mentees?
Dr. Alexandria White: Yes, there is discomfort for men in regards to mentoring women, so where does that come from? Many of them feel that they just don't understand the issues that women face. So if I don't understand the issues that women face, how can I be an intentional mentor? And we do have to mention the #MeToo movement. The #MeToo movement brought attention to the complex issues that many women face in regards to sexual harassment, biases, and discrimination, so that movement has made some men a little apprehensive about being alone with women, or traveling with women, or having one-on-one meetings.
Some of that discomfort comes from that movement, but I like to turn things around, so we utilize the #MeToo movement to amplify those voices and also bring attention to what men can do to minimize those discriminations, those harassment cases. That's why I think it's important that men are intentional mentors, and let's talk about this mentoring virtually.
Chris Riback: Yes.
Dr. Alexandria White: Can a man even mentor via Zoom or WebEx or Teams? Yes, yes they can. And so actually it could be a little more safe if you do that in virtual mentoring, a chat, a simple text message. Meeting virtually in spaces can also be ways of mentoring and it could bring a little bit more comfort to maybe a man who might be apprehensive in meeting one on one.
Chris Riback: I hear you, although I could equally see somebody feeling that, "Okay, I'm distant, I'm remote, I'm on Zoom, I'm via chat, I'm via text so I don't have the possibility of an inadvertent interpretation of some in-person action. However we all know texts don't always get read or interpreted the way that we mean them. Am I texting too much? Should I not be... Oh, a thought just came to me but it's 10:00 PM, is this an inappropriate time to be texting?
So I hear you that yes, that remoteness might bring benefits, I wonder if it also brings questions and that ties in #MeToo, and you raised it. Well, it did a million things, but of the two things it did, it helped men become aware of the harassment component and then that generated some fear of, am I going to get swept up in this? On the other hand, as you just noted, it also has the opportunity to bring knowledge and to deliver awareness and men can take a look at that and study it, and help redirect their actions. So again on the remote mentoring, am I onto something in terms of some of the potential concerns and what would your guidance be on that front?
Dr. Alexandria White: Yes. There's a slippery slope in everything that you do, but building rapport with people starts with understanding what is their comfort level for texting and messaging at different times of the day? We’re all familiar with the Golden Rule: Treat others how you want to be treated. I suggest using the Platinum Rule: Treat others how they want to be treated.
Chris Riback: Should I ask that? I mean, is that-
Dr. Alexandria White: Oh yes.
Chris Riback: Or do I need to know that? How can I be a mentor if I don't know that in the first instance, or is it something to ask? "Are you comfortable with a text at 10:00 PM?"
Dr. Alexandria White: Yes, yes, definitely asking. We're going to talk a little bit about actionable things that you can do, that men, men can specifically do and one of those is asking. Asking, "What are you comfortable with and how can I take you to the next level professionally?" We're not even just going to talk about professionally because a good, well rounded mentor is able to understand emotional, social and societal things that impact their mentees. So asking a question, "I found this article about women in negotiating their salaries, is it okay if I text it to you after hours?" Just asking for that ability to do that is quite simple.
Chris Riback: Yes. As I'm listening to you say that, I could imagine someone thinking, "Well, that takes away my..." Authority isn't maybe the right word, but, "... authority as a mentor, by asking because now I'm asking the mentee for mentorship on how to be a mentor," but that's not the point, is it?
Dr. Alexandria White: Right.
Chris Riback: Yes, you are asking that, but it doesn't reduce one's authority. In a sense, I'm assuming because I listen to you a lot, it enhances one's standing because it demonstrates some empathy.
Dr. Alexandria White: Correct. Ooh, empathy, one of my favorite words in regards to-
Chris Riback: Yes, you thought I didn't listen to you, didn't you? I listen.
Dr. Alexandria White: One of my favorite words in this conversation, so yes.
Chris Riback: Empathy is one of your favorite words, we know, and this topic is bigger of course, than just this conversation. Stanford Business School is giving three sessions on the topic to their alums and ReBoot Accel is leading those sessions. Alex, what does one of the best business schools in the world know that some of us might be afraid of?
Dr. Alexandria White: Well, as the Vice President of Diversity and Inclusion for ReBoot Accel, we have the challenge of providing curriculum and actionable items to males or anyone who wants to be an ally to women in the workplace. What does that look like? It looks like having conversations like this where people can ask those uncomfortable questions, understanding the impact to companies, organizations, where women are not treated equally or mentored. What is the impact? I'm actually going to give you some stats later on, that it is impactful when a company does not promote women -- negatively impactful.
Chris Riback: Yes.
Dr. Alexandria White: Through research, through interviews, through articles, we will take that information and provide a curriculum so that men and anyone else who wants to promote and mentor women, will have an action plan as they do so.
Chris Riback: You just raised the value to companies, I absolutely want to ask you about that. Before we get to the companies, I want to turn the question around that we've been discussing just a little bit. Are there ways that male mentors in particular can be especially constructive with women mentees? We've kind of outlined a little bit so far in this conversation, yes, male mentors can and should be mentors with women mentees, but I'm wondering if there is something especially constructive about a male mentor? And what happens if men don't take action? What happens if men opt out?
Dr. Alexandria White: I want to give you a personal example for me, where a man was especially constructive and intentional as my mentor. In my other life, I work with students and a couple of years ago, I discovered a student that had passed away. I walked into their apartment and they had passed away, and I went into my professional mode. Okay, I've got to contact the parents, their teachers, get their belongings sent home, just the checklist that a professional does when they have a death of a student.
This male mentor who had worked with me and knows how high energy, and I'm very task oriented, knew that I was suffering, but I had to continue to be professional. So he pulled me inside and he... I don't think it was an ask, I think he said, "Alex, I need you to take a week off. I need you to go to the on-campus therapist and I need you to do some self-care." He said, "You cannot pour from an empty cup," and that mentoring moment has stuck with me. It was constructive, it was intentional, and he had empathy for me. That is how male mentors can show up to women, especially high achieving women.
What happens if men don't take action? What happens to companies and organizations in three to five years where there is no women in their C-suite or their board of directors? I think those companies and organizations will be left behind. If you don't believe me, I love data and so we're going to talk about The Pipeline. It's a UK consulting company, and so they did research on about 350 companies and they found that in the past year, companies where women make up at least half of the executive committee, delivered a profit margin of 21%. Then those companies that had zero women on their executive committees, their profits dropped. So there's your answer. What happens when men don't take action? It affects the bottom line with their company. Not only the bottom line, but retention and access for women.
Chris Riback: So do companies need to act institutionally? Does there need to be, in a sense, a standard operating procedure, a plan of action to ensure that men are part of the mentoring channel, even with women? I would think as well, perhaps there would want to be a parallel path, some training for men. Do companies need to make sure and take proactive action to make sure that it is happening from an institutional level and it is not left up to male mentors personally or individually making choices, "Yes, I'm going to opt in," or, "No, I'm not going to do this?"
Dr. Alexandria White: Institutionally, yes. How do you do that? You look at pay equity across the board. Who's advancing, who are we retaining? Then you go, that's the macro level, let's start on the micro level. It's that training, it's that mentorship, that sponsorship, who's getting those stretch assignments? So yes, institutionally companies have to do that. Pay equity, access, new opportunities. Is there any correction of bad habits or patterns that you've seen in exit interviews? It'll take the buy-in of leadership, human resources, and a plethora of other key players to make sure that mentorship is at the forefront of a company's values. And a company that is doing that, an executive chairman of the board of directors, Brad Smith in-
Chris Riback: Yes, former president and CEO of Intuit, now current executive chair of the board of directors.
Dr. Alexandria White: He gets it. He gets it. He said that leaders and companies that embrace these facts perform better than their peers, by a significant margin. He gave great insight on how they should do it. He says, "See it to believe it. Live your commitment." Companies have to live their commitment, set goals, not quotas, align incentives. You hear that? Incentives, where the money at? Cultivate transparency and candor, and that can be found in let's be very candid about our pay equity. Why are women leaving? Why are women staying? And how can we do policies and procedures that give them a sense of belonging? Last but not least Brad says, "Listen and act." This is where the power of mentoring comes into play.
Chris Riback: That's a great list. Those are Brad Smith's smarts. In a moment, we're going to get to Dr. White's wisdom, which I don't know Brad, but maybe that's going to outweigh Brad Smith's smarts, we'll see. Before I get there, a question that's come to my mind as I'm listening to you, we're talking a lot about the benefits of this process for the mentees. We're talking about the benefits of this process for the companies. You just mentioned incentives in the form of compensation or in revenue and funds of that sort. What about the mentors themselves? Beyond doing the right thing and helping their company cultures, is there personal growth that can accrue to male managers who take on mentoring of women?
Dr. Alexandria White: Definitely. I believe in seeing the role of others and that's people who look like me, as well as people who do not look like me, people who have experiences that are different from mine. I feel the importance of getting to know people and that makes me a better leader. So if men are understanding the lived experiences of women in their professional lives and in their personal lives, that makes them better leaders, that makes them empathetic leaders. It allows them to understand what are some of the unique challenges of women. When you do that, it can change how you think about products, it can change how you think about acquisitions and hiring, and deadlines, and advancement. It is very advantageous for men to have women mentees so that they can see what is important in their lives and how they can advance their careers.
Chris Riback: Let's get to the part that I've been waiting for, Dr. White's wisdom. It's obvious in listening to you so far, any concerns that male mentors might have, in particular coming out of #MeToo, about, "Well, I don't have enough experience. I have not lived the women employees' experiences so I am not qualified to be a mentor," any concerns they have about, "I don't want some action of mine being inadvertently interpreted in a way that is going to hurt me so I better just protect myself and back away." I hear you, one can't fall on that crutch. A male mentor must take lessons from those experiences, take insights, understand how to properly act as a mentor, but one can't just opt out. That's not an excuse, is it, Alex?
Dr. Alexandria White: Not at all, because we know that leaders, sometimes, or most of the time, they should be in uncomfortable situations in order to grow. So you have all of this discomfort about mentoring a woman, what can you do to suppress that discomfort? What tools and resources can you use to help minimize that? I've thought of an acronym, A.C.T.I.O.N., because that's what we want men to do. We want them to be actionable. A.C.T.I.O.N. stands for “A”, which is acknowledge your biases. We all have them, Chris, but acknowledging them and understanding where they come from and how you can minimize that, is one-
Chris Riback: Acknowledging them to yourself, or acknowledging them to your mentee?
Dr. Alexandria White: To yourself, because it starts with you. Acknowledge your biases. What is preventing me from mentoring women? Am I just, there's no women, I don't know what to say, or all women do this, all women do that. Acknowledging your biases.
Chris Riback: Be honest with yourself.
Dr. Alexandria White: Be honest with yourself. “C” in A.C.T.I.O.N., which is checking your mindset. What's even your motivation for wanting to be a mentor? Do you want to add more women to your mentoring portfolio? Is it intentional? Is it performative? What is your mindset around it? “T”, take inventory of women in your professional and personal life, learn their lived experiences. Your aunts, your mothers, your grandmothers, your cousins, you might even get some brownie points for even asking. Because I have five brothers and if one of my brothers came up and said, "Can you tell me a little bit about if there's any men that has mentored you professionally?" I would be very taken aback, but I would appreciate it, right?
Chris Riback: And you'd throw a couple of brownie points their way.
Dr. Alexandria White: I did, I would, I would. Then “I,” inquire about current policies and procedures in your company organization that impact women, maternity leave, access to lactation rooms in your buildings, childcare reimbursement. Do you even know about those things? And then, “O,” open opportunities for women to grow and advance at your company. We already talked about mentoring. Amplification of ideas in meetings, don't steal their ideas or overtalk them in meetings. Include them in key meetings, decision making meetings, give them stretch assignments.
And then “N” because I am very, very keen on making sure that women get paid, so “N” is for negotiate. Encourage women to negotiate everything. As a male mentor, it's your responsibility to make sure that women get paid the same amount, because we know according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2020 women's earnings were only 82% of a dollar for men.
Chris Riback: Yes, 82 cents on a dollar.
Dr. Alexandria White: And we're not even going to talk about women of color because that gap is even larger. So action, A-C-T-I-O-N, acknowledge your biases, check your mindset, take inventory of women in your life, inquire about policies, open opportunities, and N is for negotiate.
Chris Riback: A-C-T-I-O-N, action. Why am I not surprised that “A.C.T.I.O.N.” was the acronym that you came up with? Is that supposed to surprise me? Because it doesn't Alex, I got to be honest with you.
Dr. Alexandria White: I love action. I'm a researcher, but I also believe in after we've done some research and reading, now let's get in the trenches and do the work.
Chris Riback: I agree with that. I will take your advice as always, and male mentors out there and companies, and women mentees will take action as well. Alex, thank you.
Dr. Alexandria White: Thank you very much, Chris, until next time.
