Episode 37: Empowering the Core: Investing in Middle Managers

Middle managers play a pivotal role in organizational success. Founder and CEO of The Equity Equation and host of the DEI After 5 podcast Sacha Thompson shares the importance of investing in middle managers and empowering them to drive positive change. Learn how strategic leadership development can bridge the gap between DEI training and day-to-day responsibilities.

Watch host Alexandria White and Call In executive producer Diane Flynn on DEI After 5 with Sacha Thompson HERE.

Dr. Alexandria White: Hello, Sacha. It is so nice to see you again.

Sacha Thompson: Same here, Alex. It's wonderful to see you and be in community with you again.

Dr. Alexandria White: To our listeners, Diane and I, my business partner rebooted Excel, we had the privilege of being on Sacha's live podcast and it was amazing, and so it was so fruitful, so engaging conversation, we decided to continue on and bring her on call in. So listeners will have put in the show notes that episode with Diane and I, and then look forward to what we're getting ready to discuss. And so welcome, welcome, welcome. We have our co-host, Chris here, and we're going to delve into some issues, some diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. But first, I like to know who I am talking to and so do our listeners. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you get into this work?

Sacha Thompson: First of all, my name is Sacha Thompson. I am the founder of the equity equation and the Equity Leadership Institute. I'm a backup and say that I am truly a believer in creating inclusive workplaces. That's how I got into this work. I have been doing some type of diversity, equity, inclusion even before those names were a part of the names for most of my career. So I was a sociology major. I focused on cultural diversity and ethnicity. I worked in the Office of Multicultural Affairs on campus, so it was truly a part of my DNA and who I was and what I was just really curious about learning about different cultures and how we interacted with each other. So fast forward into my career, I've always had some type of program design development looking at underrepresented communities and how to create equity programs. So did that for several years and just kind of led me to really thinking about how can I be more of a value to organizations and not live in the box where I was trying to put me in.

And so started the equity equation back in 2020 to really focus on not just kind of checking the boxes on training and development, but really giving middle managers the tools and resources that they need in order to be successful. So it's not just going to a session to check a box, okay, what does this mean for me and how do I include what I've just learned in my day-to-day? So that's the work that we do at the equity equation, really focused on psychological safety and then at the Equity Leadership Institute takes the step further and helping people learn the coaching skills that are needed in order to show up in the post pandemic workplace.

Dr. Alexandria White: Great story. It gives us some background and foundation to our talk here today as well as your passion and your zeal for what you do. That's important nowadays.

Sacha Thompson: Yes, absolutely.

Chris Riback: Sacha, I'm interested in the middle manager part. So let's get to, it sounds like some of the really tangible capabilities that you help empower businesses and managers with. First of all, what do you find they're interested in? What do you find they are lacking? How do they react when you talk with them about these goals? How do you empower them?

Sacha Thompson: Part of it honestly is how do I do all the things? They are leading teams, they are, even if they're independent contributors that are in that middle management space, there's a long to-do list every single day. And so now we're trying to add on top of that skills and competencies and all of these things. And so what we have discovered, even what I experienced when I was in corporate was there wasn't a connection point between what we were learning in these trainings and it looked like it was just an additional add-on to the big pile of stuff that was already on my desk. And so how do we help one minimize kind of that anxiety that comes along with being in that type of role or in those positions. And two, how do you learn how to delegate in ways that take some of this stuff off of your desk but empowers the people on your team so that they feel as if they are valued and seen and heard and connected.

And so that's where a lot of those coaching skills come in. It's not just, okay, I'm learning about psychological safety. I'm going to give you a score so you'll be able to see where the psychological safety is on your team and which stage your team is kind of leaning into. And then as a coach, I can help talk you through, okay, so what's happening with your team, which forces you to kind of think about, okay, well who are the individuals? What are their needs? How am I supporting them? I worked with one leader at an organization and I asked him, I'm like, okay, so what does your team need the individuals on your team need? And he was like, I never asked them. I'm like, let's start there. Let's just start bare basics, right? Ask each individual person what they need in order to be successful. That's where you could at least start the conversation to start closing some of those gaps.

Dr. Alexandria White: You mentioned the word anxiety. I have to go back to that and unpack that because you can't say anything. You get canceled, you're too woke. People need to come to work, put their head down and just do their work. Tell me what that anxiety looks like because yes, you were able to ask that manager, why haven't you asked your direct report, but what if that manager is anxious and they don't even want to mention DEIB? How does that show up? What do you do?

Sacha Thompson: First of all, let's understand the root of that anxiety. It's fear. It's fear of everything that you just named fear of not having the right answer or saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing and feeling like I'm supposed to know all of these things. The reality is we're all human. We don't have all of the answers. And so part of that process is understanding how to step out of this, know all, end all, be all role into how can I coach people? I can just provide the right questions so that they feel valued, seen, heard, and connected, a repositioning that I'm finding because if I'm asking you what you need in order to be successful, you're now giving me the answers. So even in times like this where there's just so much anxiety and fear of saying and doing the wrong thing, I'm meeting you where you are by asking you, you know what, Alex, what do you need from me right now in order to feel supported?

That's not me taking sides on any issue. That is me looking at you and really determining, okay, how can I help you right now? Is it that you need time off? Is it that you need to vent? Is it that you need some additional support? So now you're giving me some things that you will find helpful where you feel valued, seen and heard, and me as a leader can step in and help you with those things. I don't have to have the answers to everything, but at least I'm there to support you. And so I think in repositioning or rethinking that process of having all of the answers, what the generations before us were doing in order to be a leader, you had to have all the answers. That's not where we are right now. And it's not healthy to be in those positions.

Chris Riback: I love this idea of repositioning. I also really like this concept of not feeling that one must have all of the answers, feels a bit like parenting to me. And maybe once upon a time parents felt like they had to have all of the answers. And now that some of us have gotten into that sport, we realize that we don't have all the answers. Not much. No, not so much. We may not even at times have any of the answers, and yet there are still tensions. I think potentially, and this is where I'd like to have you give me additional guidance and understanding around the sense that there is potentially tension between acting human and acting like a business person. And I say potentially tension because there doesn't have to be in the end as a manager, I am responsible for making my business work.

That is how I am judged. And at the same time, up to the point that we are all replaced by AI and robots, which should be in about a week and a half now. We happen to work with human beings. And so the psychology, the humanity that you are talking about, I'm interpreting less as having to fit into some paradigm that is transfixing our social discourse around who gets to be included, what defines equality. And instead, I'm interpreting you as saying, Hey, can we all just be human for a moment? Could we just understand that as part of your job in making widgets business manager, you have humans, and I would expect that you would want them to be operating at their peak performance. So maybe every once in a while you just want to ask 'em, Hey, how are you doing? Am I oversimplifying? Am I understanding?

Sacha Thompson: I think you've the nail on the head, right? So one of the things we're noticing and we're seeing right now is we are in a post pandemic world, and there's so many organizations that are trying to get back to this pre pandemic workplace. We got widgets, we need to get them out. Let's just roll, roll, roll, roll, roll. People realize they were people over the last three years, and so priorities have shifted. Things that are more important to them have now become higher priority for them. And so that's where a lot of that humanness comes in. And one of the things that I talk about a lot with organizations is, and a lot of HR folks don't like when I say this, but if you create an environment where people feel valued, seen, heard, and connected, they will tell other people about it because they want other people to explore that, and they want other people to be in an environment that values them.

So those would be your best recruiters. But it's that shift to I am a person and I'm not a machine. They're getting the flexibility. They're getting someone that is checking in on not just what they're doing but how they are doing. And so when you have organizations that are making those shifts, people will give you everything that you want. Their hearts and minds and soul are connected to the work because they're feeling valued. And so the widgets will happen, that work will happen. As a matter of fact, if it's someplace that's more psychologically safe for them, where they feel that they can push back and they can make challenges to the status quo, they will go above and beyond. And that's where innovation happens. So now you're not just making widgets, you're making bobbles and do hickeys and anything else because you're now seeing the value that people are bringing and they're bringing their experiences. They're bringing in what your clients and customers are looking for. And so now that's where you take it to the next level. But in order to do that, it starts at that very simple basic need of inclusion.

Dr. Alexandria White: Okay. What about the other E word? We're not talking about equity, it's empathy.

Sacha Thompson: Yes.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes. Tell us where that is, because now if you go to LinkedIn and empathy in job descriptions, you will see that soft skill that's aware. I just had the pleasure of reading something from the equity equation on embracing empathy and compassion.

Sacha Thompson: So I want to step back a second because on my podcast, I had someone come on a couple months ago that shifted my mindset. We've been taught empathy, compassion, feeling like those touchy feely things are soft skills. Number one, they're hard to do, which is why a lot of people try to avoid them because now you're asking me to step into my feelings and who I am. The shift that they asked me to make was instead of calling them soft skills, let's look at them as power skills because that is what the next generation of leaders are going to have to have. And so with the newsletter that went out this morning about empathy and compassion, it really came from me having a conversation with an organization this morning about, okay, my leaders are just struggling to connect with their employees. With everything going on in the world right now, people are just in their feelings and lashing out and there's no respect and all of these things, and they're not quite sure how to show up.

And I'm like the first step, we talk a lot about emotional intelligence. Empathy is a big part of that. Compassion is a big part of that. I don't have to go through exactly what you're going through in order to feel empathetic. And so when you step back and you step into someone else's shoes and at least understand, okay, how is this impacting them? What can I do? Is there anything I can do? Right? Maybe it's just saying that my door is open, and if you need someone to talk to, if it's providing resources in that way, I can connect with you in those ways because of empathy, because of compassion. And it takes the coldness of, well, I'm just here because we need to create widgets. If that's how you see me as just a widget creator and not as the human that I am, then that tells me everything I need to know about you as a leader in this organization. Nine times out of 10, I will probably look to go somewhere else because I am more than just a widget maker. I'm a bonus mom, I'm a sister, I'm a daughter, I'm all of these other things, and I can't leave part of that at the door. That's what we learned during this pandemic, right? There is no more door. We are who we are and how we show up. And so as leaders, we need to step up our game in order to meet our teams and our employees in those spaces too.

Chris Riback: Sacha, I'm so taken by this idea, particularly because of the time that we're in society and business and technology, and you touched on it a couple of different ways. So a moment ago, we were talking about half jokingly AI and my week and a half shelf life of productivity before we're replaced. Yet you said at the end of that part, which is totally true, that by engaging with our colleagues or employees, if one's a manager, but our colleagues, let's just say as humans, you actually will unleash not just a higher number of widgets, which by the way, I can't believe how many times we've worked that concept. Yeah, because it's obviously so far beyond that, but it helps make a point and you'll start introducing innovation and creating, as you said, which I just love do hickeys and other things. But that point as I was listening to you, that is such a massive point because the ability to innovate is at its heart, the differentiator between ai, machine learning, and humanity.

There's all sorts of things being written about in an age where machine learning risks replacing so many skills that the ability to apply individual creativity is what will create real value, individual value, et cetera. And so there's this contradiction of where we are in society that you're really throwing an arrow right into, which is one at the same time that we are becoming more technologically driven. You are advancing the concept that we need to be more human and humanity oriented. Not only will that drive ultimately more innovation, but that the ability to do that then is to use the term that you said, reframe some of your thinking. That's a power skill because you're now changing your business, you're changing your ability as a manager, you're changing the trajectory of your employees. That's what I'm hearing. I

Sacha Thompson: Think you're spot on. And so the thing that I don't know if a lot of people even know about me, I spent 10 years of my career in tech, and so this whole conversation about AI and machine learning I was having in 20 17, 20 18, it's fascinating to me because one of the conversations that I was really pushing and trying to have is how do you utilize this technology for good? Because one of the controversies that was coming out during the time was how police departments were using AI and machine learning. It was causing more harm to marginalized communities. So let's take a step back where diversity comes in, where inclusion and equity, all of those things come in is and who is putting the data into this model, into this machine learning into this ai? Those are your people. And so if you have teams that are diverse and that come from all of these backgrounds and entities that are not forcibly marginalized, that's where the innovation really starts to thrive and comes in.

And so it's how do you partner with AI versus seeing AI as a threat? And that is where I think a lot of organizations really need to step in. It's not to replace someone. How do you use AI and machine learning to enhance what your organization is doing or seeing things that you all aren't seeing? Again, it goes back to what's the data that's being put in there? That's where the human part of this, what you're touching on is that mindset. Oh my gosh, we are a society of fear, right? Oh my gosh, these machines are going to take over and they're going to push me out of my job. How can I utilize these machines to make things more effective so that I can do my job at the next level? How can this machine help me understand our customer base better so that we are now creating new tools, resources, et cetera, to meet those needs in ways that we haven't before?

Dr. Alexandria White: So I have a confession. Yesterday I was in CVS and the self-checkout was available. I purposely went and found the CVS employee and said, can you check me out? The first thing he says is, oh, self-checkout is available. I said, I want to talk to you. He had his name tag on and I said, Hayden, how are you doing today? And after we completed our transaction, he said it was nice to talk to a person because people have been doing self-checkout all evening. And think of that one, I am anti self-checkout. I am not doing it. I don't get paid by Walmart, target or CVS. I want to speak to a person. As you spoke about that many people are fearing robots and the self-checkout, that's somebody's job that's standing there. But I'm thinking of the business aspect of CVS Walmart target because at that CVS moment yesterday, he was out doing inventory that was a business play in regards to ai. We're going to have self-checkout so that the people can go do other things. That's the business part of this. AI is not going anywhere, and so we have to reimagine the business part in that and embracing humanity. So how do you do that? What does that look like?

Sacha Thompson: So I love that example that you gave because my gut reaction, first of all, I'm an introvert. It just takes too much energy for me to talk to people sometimes. But where my business mind came into that was what if 50% of that person's time was as a customer engagement representative or manager or something where their job was to connect with customers? How can I help you? You're getting that product. Well, we have this one over here that's for say whatever, however you want to utilize them. So it's not that they're now the human robot that's just restocking shelves. Amazon has proven to us that robots can stock shelves. They do that very well. It's that human connection that people are wanting. And you even said that's what you want to talk to people. So how can you then create roles and create opportunities where people aren't losing their jobs, but they're also connecting in ways that machines will not be able to connect to get the insights.

You can get so much data from, we sold this number of toothpaste and this number of sponges today, but who's going to tell you what? Alexandra just really wanted to talk to someone, and these are the things that we talked about. And so these are some of the insights of our customers. This is what's important to them because you're not going to answer an email that has that survey information in it because tired of email. So again, it goes back to how do we rethink this human element of our businesses in ways that no one else is thinking of that.

Dr. Alexandria White: Excellent. Thank you.

Chris Riback: Sacha. I could sit and listen about humanity and ways to restore humanity to our interactions all day long. I hate to put a number on it, but what are the X number three or four lessons, tips, points of guidance that you would give a CEO right now? What should they be thinking about every day from your vantage point, from what you do for a living, from what you see in companies, corporations, every day, what are the X number of lessons you would give a CEO right now?

Sacha Thompson: The first thing that immediately came to mind is that TV show undercover boss. Find out what is happening on the ground of your organization. Really get to understand how things are being handled. Day to the culture is not what's on the cafeteria wall. That's what you strive for. The culture is what people experience every single day. And so how are they experiencing that? And as a CEO, I think that that is so critical in how your business is going to succeed or not. What are people experiencing every single day? You all know who the toxic folks are in your organizations. Your culture is how you deal with them. The other thing that I think is important for CEOs to keep in mind is how are you investing in supporting your middle managers? Because oftentimes what happens is information comes from the top and it's trickle down, or there's grassroots efforts and it's pushed from the bottom up and the folks in the middle are just trying to figure out what the hell to do.

They're just trying to operate in swan mode, I call it, right? Because trying to act like everything is great and fine, and then they're paddling like hell underneath just trying to keep afloat. So really focusing on middle managers and how you're investing in their support, be it coaching, be it training, be it whatever it is. And then the third thing is what does self-care look like for your organization? Because there's so many, nine to five, it's just very strict. And again, the humanness of people, we are realizing that sometimes I just need to check in and check out in different times. I may be a caretaker for a parent and a child, and so my days may need to look a little bit different or what self-care looks like needs to be different. So I want to tweak that a little bit. But also flexibility part of self-care is understanding and knowing what I need when I need it in order for me to show up fully.

Dr. Alexandria White: What if they want to enroll in your Equity Leadership Institute? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Sacha Thompson: So there's two things that we're doing at the institute. One is an actual coaching certification, so an ICF level one coaching certification, one leadership. And we were going back and forth on should we call it inclusive leadership, but we really landed on what leadership should be inclusive, period. And so it's incorporated in there, and so you will learn the basics of coaching and how you can take that back to your organization. The second part of that is we do have an inclusive leadership program that we can take to organizations that really touches on what I've been talking about. Psychological safety, emotional intelligence, leader as coach, leader as mentor. All of these things that the current workplace is asking of leaders research is showing that this is the expectation. And so we provide this four day training to really help uplevel leaders in this space and provide them support after those four days, we're not checking boxes. How do we help check in with you as well after that time? So those are the two ways that we help organizations and leaders.

Dr. Alexandria White: Awesome. And as we close, I know this is not goodbye, this is see you later. Anything projects that our listeners might need to know about that we can share that you feel like sharing with us before we close out?

Sacha Thompson: Yeah. So absolutely the things that are happening with the institute. The other thing that we are launching a program called Empower her, which is a group coaching program for women of color in the workplace. Because as we're doing all of these things, one of the things that was very important to me and I started seeing in organizations, women of color are often seen as the problem, let me get them coaching so that they can get help. And so this is kind of, again, reframing of that is how do I empower you to show up in these spaces that may not always be equitable or inclusive of you, but in ways where you can also showcase and highlight who you are in a meaningful way. So we have that program that is launching next week.

Dr. Alexandria White: Awesome. I will definitely be pinging you about that. Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this space with us and we look forward to chatting with you sometime in the near future.

Sacha Thompson: Absolutely. Thank you both for having me. This has been wonderful.