Episode 12: How to Reduce Hiring Bias

What does it mean to hire the best person for the job? 10 steps for reducing bias in hiring – and hear insights from Samsung Electronics America.

Transcript   

Chris Riback: I'm Chris Riback. This is Call In. With Dr. Alexandria White, we discuss business leadership in our time of social change when to call in, when to call out, and how to build sustainable business value today. Today’s topic: How to Reduce Hiring Bias? 

Dr. Alexandria White: Our show is brought to you by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, which is committed to a more diverse and inclusive future. Let's call in.

Chris Riback: Hi, Dr. White. Hope you're doing well.

Dr. Alexandria White: Hi Chris. I am doing great.

Chris Riback: Really looking forward to today's conversation. We're going to do this one just a little bit differently. As you know, we have Tami DeWeese, Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Samsung Electronics America, as our guest today. And as you and I are talking, we'll have the benefit of hearing Tami's insights, during our conversation. Are you good with that?

Dr. Alexandria White: I sure am.

Chris Riback: Okay, then are you ready to start talking about hiring?

Dr. Alexandria White: Let's do this.

Chris Riback: Alex, I feel like America has been talking about hiring bias for a generation, certainly since I've been in the workforce, which to be honest feels like three generations. Sincere question though, that surely gets a complex answer from you. Why are we still talking about it?

Dr. Alexandria White:   I think it's because it's still current. It's still important for potential employees to feel that companies are hiring fairly. It's very important for Hiring Managers and  Search Committees to understand that, "Hey, they have biases." And those can show up in the hiring process and what they can do about it.

Chris Riback: Alex, what does it mean to hire the best person for the job?

Dr. Alexandria White: Chris, that is a common question that I often hear. You know what, it depends on how you actually define best. There's a particular image that most people have of who would fit in that position, and this image can impact hiring decisions. However, the best person for the job is someone who meets all the objective criteria and they will provide a fresh perspective to the team and even the company.

Chris Riback: So why isn't that happening?

Dr. Alexandria White: There's a lot of reasons it hasn't happening. There is affinity bias. Lack of objective criteria. All candidates are not getting the same rubrics or scorecard. Interviewing teams are not interviewing with the same criteria in mind for each candidate. And then of course, we needtraining of interviewing teams on how they can have inclusive practices.

Chris Riback: But Alex, isn't the hiring decision up to the manager? So, you have the objective criteria, you have a job description and you have a manager and that manager's responsibility --  she gets judged by successfully or not successfully, managing her team --  which involves hiring the right people, prioritizing, all the things that good management requires. If the manager is on the hook for effective performance, why isn't the default, that it's the manager's right, to define what best means?

Dr. Alexandria White: Well, I think it's that happy medium. And I think it's important that managers have the autonomy to hire the best person for the job, as we mentioned, but they also have the responsibility to make sure that they're hiring people that don't look like them. And then of course hiring that new perspective that could be a cultural add to the team and the company.

Chris Riback: Isn't it the manager's job to get hiring right? And if the manager isn't doing that, then isn’t the problem that the manager isn't prepared? At the worst, the manager's lousy. Or at best, let's say the manager's a really good manager in areas A, B and C, but  maybe not so strong in understanding hiring practices – that might not be what got that person the manager spot. And so, it's a need for manager training, around how to rethink the process of hiring. Is that what you're saying?

Dr. Alexandria White:   I'm saying this exactly. Yes, it is their responsibility. However, we often give people responsibility without proper training. And so, as we do this work, as Reboot Accel consults with companies, we figure out that we have to prepare people for the hiring process. We just can't say, "Oh, Chris, we need you to hire a ... Find a diverse Search Committee, find a diverse slate of candidates and do all of this." And what if that Hiring Manager doesn't have the tools to do that? And that is how we have to prepare people for the hiring process if we want a diverse interviewing practice and inclusive interviewing.

Chris Riback: You wouldn't hire a manager to manage a production line, who didn't understand how a production line works. Why do we have managers, who are put in the position of hiring, who may not have been trained on that component of the managerial responsibilities? They may be really excellent at running a production line, at managing a supply chain, at driving innovation within a technology stack or something like that. But they might not have the experience and understand the subtleties and not subtleties, the realities of hiring and what I hear you saying is, we ought to focus a little bit more on that aspect of being a manager.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes.

Chris Riback: Thank you.

Dr. Alexandria White: Very much so. I agree.

Chris Riback: And I appreciate that. And Alex, this feels like a good place for us to hear from Tami DeWeese, the Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Samsung Electronics, America. Let's hear what she had to say on this.

Tami DeWeese: Chris and Alex, thank you so much for calling me into this conversation - it’s so important, now more than ever. And you’re right! We shouldn’t assume our hiring managers know the steps or their responsibilities to support diverse hiring. When a hiring manager needs additional staff, it’s often because they’re operating in a deficit. Someone’s resigned or more responsibility has been added to their plate, work scope. So they’re really busy trying to keep up with demands. And they may feel pressured to hire and fill the seat ASAP. And let’s be candid. They may rush the process to fill a seat. But that doesn’t always produce the best hire. So spending a little time up front to equip the hiring managers with training and resources helps ensure there’s fairness, equity, consistency in the hiring process. This gives us better outcomes and everyone benefits when this is done well.

Chris Riback: Alex, let's take those insights from Tami and talk about how to prepare for the hiring process. Now I know you and the Reboot Accel team, have created a 10 step module on how to ensure that a hiring process broadens the pool of candidates and ensures that the best candidate is hired. We won't be able to go through all 10 steps in this conversation, but I'd like to ask you about a few of them. 

One, in the pre-hiring stages, when managers and leaders are preparing for the hiring process, you lay out steps that help companies broaden or widen the pool of candidates. So what exactly should they be seeking to broaden or widen? And, from a diversity point of view, how does one know if they are broadening or widening, simply for the window dressing? We've all heard about that. Or, in a way to drive and deliver actually differentiating results.

Dr. Alexandria White: All right. Great question, Chris. So in this fast-paced hiring world, it's really difficult to take time to broaden or widen the pool of candidates. However, I tell companies to use the resources they have. What about their current staff? If you have opportunities in your company, for instance you want to increase your Hispanic employee population. Why don't you ask your Hispanic employees  about their networks and how to utilize them to broaden candidate slates? Simple thing. Using what you have, to get what you want, right? Now, diversity is just one aspect of having an inclusive workforce. Just one. You can hire a diverse team, to broaden your focus on diversity.

However, will those diversity hires remain at your company? They must have inclusion and belonging. That has to be the overall foundation of the company. So what does that look like? To avoid that window dressing DEI, Diversity Equity Inclusion, has to be embedded in the DNA of the culture.

Chris Riback: Put the DEI in the DNA.

Dr. Alexandria White: There you go, Chris, there you go. And so you do that, by having diversity dashboards andpublic metrics. That means, people get to go to your website and say, "Hey, company X will have 50% of their workforce women by 2025." That's public metrics. And then, identifying what the company will do to attract, retain and advance the particular demographic that you are recruiting.

Chris Riback: Alex, those are some excellent tactics. Let's hear what Tami DeWeese of Samsung has to say about this. Okay. Alex, let's talk now about reducing hiring bias, by focusing on adopting inclusive screening and interview practices. How does one do that and what perhaps negative factors are you trying to control for or protect against?

Dr. Alexandria White: There's so many changes to the hiring process. It's continuing to evolve, whether in person, versus virtual or both. Talent acquisition, Hiring Committee professionals, human resource professionals are in this limbo about how do we attract and hire people for our companies? Inclusive hiring practices starts with awareness. Times have changed. Any company or organization that is not providing training for its Hiring Committees is doing a disservice to the company, as well as potential employees. So what does inclusion mean in the hiring process? Yes, we have those 10 steps, but I wanted to give you some tidbits on how inclusion shows up in the hiring process. It means reducing bias. I mentioned affinity bias. It means asking-

Chris Riback: Define affinity bias for me.

Dr. Alexandria White: Affinity bias is, Chris, you and I are both from Chicago and so, I think that you would just be a better person for this job.

Chris Riback: I was going to say, you're hired. You're from Chicago, that's all I needed to hear. I don't care what your qualifications. Yes. And I would hope I would hope the same in return. I have no qualifications for this role Dr. White, you understand, but I am from Chicago, am I hired?

Dr. Alexandria White: There you go. That is affinity by showing up. And so, inclusion in the hiring process looks like asking consistent questions to all candidates for the job. Even recognizing pronoun usage in the application process. As well as in verbal and digital communication. It’s a simple thing that you can put on your application, identify your pronouns, right? And then, let's get to the flip side. I hear people sometimes, people on Search Committees and Hiring Managers say -- you know what, people are asking too much. I have the job. I have the power. They should be doing things to enter my company, right? I'm not going to make all of these adjustments for people. I'm the one that they are wanting. I have the power in this.

Chris Riback: If they don't want the job, they don't have to apply.

Dr. Alexandria White: I understand that viewpoint. I completely do. But, I want to unpack this. We know that we are in the world of social media, that  news travels fast, the public image of a company is so important. There are websites, Glassdoor, that people look at. And how you recruit, says so much about your company. And so, if you feel that these inclusive practices are just too much to do, I want you to step back and think of, "Am I doing a disservice to my company? To my company's brand? And am I doing a disservice to the people who work here?" Because, I know a lot of people who take pride in where they work. They are walking ambassadors for their company. And so, when you have those inclusive practices, it goes back to what I said, initially. Your employee force will be your walking advertisers and potential people to help you get more diversity at your company.

Chris Riback: That's such a huge point. How you hire, is such a significant part of how the company is defined and branded, for lack of a better phrase ... And the people who look at the process, as potential hires, yes, but that wide pool, are also potential customers. They're also potential clients. And they talk. Your whole brand ambassador point, I think is totally right. And it, I think you correct me if I'm wrong, it could be extrapolated, not just to the individuals who actually get hired, but to the folks who go through the process. I went through the process with your company, Dr. White and you didn't give me the job, but you know what, you treated me with respect. I felt really good about the process and really ashamed I didn't get it this time, but I've got to say, I felt really good and I'm going to say good things about your company.

Dr. Alexandria White: You are absolutely correct, Chris. Definitely.

Chris Riback: Well, that's because I listen to the things ... I mean, I'm not just sitting here doing nothing. I'm listening to you when you talk and your statements drove another question in my mind as well. I understand the benefits of what you're outlining and to be clear, it's obviously good. When used to exclude people, bias is a terrible thing. But what you're describing, it feels like not only a lot of work, but also a lot of energy and a lot of focus. As a Hiring Manager and I want to get kind of tactical here with you, how am I supposed to be hyper focused on my non-inclusive language or protecting against my affinity bias, while also listening intently and respectfully, to the content of what the candidate tells me?

Dr. Alexandria White: Because, as a Hiring Manager or leader of a Search Committee, you will have a team of professionals who are going to assist you, in reducing bias in this hiring process. It should not be the sole responsibility of one person. Of that one person to do all the things that you just mentioned. It's a group and community effort, because when you hire that person, that person doesn't work in a silo. So why should you as the Hiring Manager, work in a silo? So that goes back to we're going to train you, but we're going to allow you to be the leader and delegate and provide all of this inclusive training practices, for your Hiring Committee.

Chris Riback: So I don't necessarily have to walk and chew gum on my own. I have colleagues who will help me chew the gum. Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Alex, you're talking about the power held by those who are offering the job, offering the role, seeking to do the hiring, but we're having this discussion at a time, when the leverage power shift, has moved from employers in not all instances, certainly, but largely to labor itself, to employees, to the person who is seeking to be hired. How does that impact how companies need to think about hiring bias?

Dr. Alexandria White: I think it amplifies the conversation. That you should be even more inclusive. Because we know #TheGreatResignation is real and prevalent. I think the numbers just came out 4.3 million people  quit their jobs in January 2022.

Chris Riback: Yes, I saw that.

Dr. Alexandria White: It's very, very important that companies roll out the red carpet. And rolling out the red carpet doesn't mean monetary things. It's those inclusive practices that I talked about. Just being aware of cultural holidays, or pronoun usage, or proper training for your Search Committee. It doesn't take a lot. It's just that if you're impactful or not, when you do it.

Chris Riback: Alex, let's hear Tami DeWeese's insights and experience on this. 

Chris Riback: Tami, from the candidate’s point of view, is it your responsibility, is it the hiring manager’s responsibility to create a positive candidate experience?

Tami DeWeese: You know, in my opinion, we should always make effort to create a positive candidate experience. Our diverse hiring teams serve as brand ambassadors. They have responsibility to come into the candidate interview prepared. An example of this is the hiring manager hosting a kickoff call where they share the role, expectations and scorecard criteria. Kickoff meetings are a normal course of business for any new project initiation. Same methodology should apply in the hiring process.

Chris Riback: What about bias, Tami? Any suggestion on conducting interviews while being mindful of bias?

Tami DeWeese: Yeah, thanks, Chris. You know, the team should have structured interview questions because it helps ensure the criteria for the role is considered. And for candidates, it can demonstrate that our company is committed to fair and consistent hiring practice. You know, and Alex I want to address an earlier comment that you made about inclusive practices. A simple way that interviewers can demonstrate inclusion and allyship during the process is to share their pronouns. And it’s as easy as saying “Hi, I’m Tami DeWeese. My pronouns are she/her. I’m Head of Diversity and Inclusion, it’s nice to meet you.”

Chris Riback: Those are excellent points again from Tami, Alex. But, moving on now from that to the next part of our process. Okay. I've interviewed all the candidates or a team of us has interviewed all the candidates, now what? Have we covered our bases and made the best person, regardless of race, background, gender, or anything else, win?

Dr. Alexandria White: Absolutely. It goes back to your initial question. How do you choose the best candidate for the job? You do that by covering all the inclusive bases, using a scorecard or rubric that evaluates all candidates fairly and then you make it an informed decision, that will positively impact the company and the team.

Chris Riback: Alex, let's hear Tami DeWeese's insights and experience on this. 

Tami DeWeese: You know, your diverse interview team, they have a vested interest in helping you select the best candidate. So be open to their feedback and perspective, even if it differs from yours.

Dr. Alexandria White: So Tami, how important is it to find a cultural fit?

Tami DeWeese: You know, culture fit’s an important part of the conversation. But it can also be limiting because it can reinforce the status quo. We like to discuss the benefits of culture add. It invites conversations about how the candidate would contribute fresh perspectives to the team, how their transferable skills or life experiences may inject new ideas and innovation. I always love it when I see or hear people having their “aha moments,” realizing that someone has  contributed valuable input that hadn’t been considered previously. So we’re excited to roll out a training here at Samsung, helping out hiring managers reduce bias during the process. And the 10 step toolkit, it’s a great resource for companies and their hiring teams.

Chris Riback: Thanks for that, Tami. Alex, this is a tough topic, incredibly, incredibly important, especially for any of us who worry about things like opportunity gaps. You've delivered a lot of guidance and insights, please wrap it up for me. Give me Dr. White's wisdom. How can leaders and managers go about reducing hiring bias? 

Dr. Alexandria White: All right. Great topic, Chris. And so I want to give our listeners three things that they can do to reduce hiring bias. One, be aware of your biases. You have them, own them, but let's reduce them. Be aware of your company biases. Does your company only hire from a particularnetwork, community, college or university? Number two, train and educate your Hiring Managers on how to be inclusive in the hiring process. As we mentioned in the introduction, Reboot Accelhas created a 10 step micro module on reducing bias. We are happy to provide these 10 steps, in the resource section of the podcast. Last, encourage and or, require Hiring Managers, to select a diverse Hiring Committee and to debrief based on what? Objective hiring criteria. Diversity of thought is essential during the debriefing process.

Chris Riback: So one, be aware of your biases as well as your company's biases. Two, train and educate Hiring Managers on how to be inclusive in the hiring process. And three, select a diverse Hiring Committee and debrief based on objective hiring criteria. That's the wisdom?

Dr. Alexandria White: That's it. Chris.

Chris Riback: Dr. White, thank you for the wisdom as always. And our thanks to Tami DeWeese, Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Samsung Electronics America, for sharing her wisdom as well.

Dr. Alexandria White: Yes. Thank you, Tami. Talk to you soon, Chris.